NSW Roll Bar Engineering Cert? For Classic Rego

[rpost77]

Probably been asked etc. etc. but search yields various results etc. and I need advice from people with more knowledge/experience than I.

Scenario:

Sept 1990 build, Jan 1991 complianced NA6 1.6 Crystal White MX5.

Car purchased 2nd hand from dealer in October 1993 with 15K km.

Currently 200K km.

Purchased Hardtop around Jan 1994 and had demister loom, switches etc. retrofitted.

2001 had central locking and engine demobiliser installed (required to register car in WA when I moved there for 2 years).

Removed original seats and replaced with NBB (surfboard) seats about 6-7 years ago.
Using the (original) tunnel attached seat belt receiver (the seat attached receivers were removed from the NBB seat when I purchased - but provided so I have them).

About 6 years ago - installed MX-5 Plus twin hoop roll bar. I did this install myself (big job - for me at least - learnt a lot and believe I did a good job - major learning - next time remove soft top to make install MUCH easier ).

Other things "added":
Tower Strut Brace (front)
TightArse subframe brace (rear)

I have an NBB Glass Window softop sitting in storage waiting to replace the on car plastic window (cracked) version. This is the whole NBB softop - hood, window, frame, rain rail etc. - intent is to remove entire existing ST and replace with entire NBB configuration.

What I am planning:

Car will hit the 30 years required for Historic or Classic registration in Jan 2021 (according to the 30 years being from the date of the Compliance Plate - not the build date).

Researching what is required, Classic Registration is the one I will (can/should) apply for as the car is not "original" and has modifications/not original parts (seats, softop, radio etc. - although these "could" be arguable).

Looking at the RMS info, it is not entirely clear if/what I may need an engineering certificate for in order to comply for the Classic registration.

At this point I am assuming that I do need the Roll Bar engineered.

According to the RMS Vehicle Standards Information (VSI) 6 document, Roll Bars fall into the "Seats and Occupant Protection" category (not the "Body and Chassis" category) and under the "Examples requiring certification" is stated:

Installation of a roll bar which interferes with seat belt or child restraint anchorages, curtain airbags or any secondary restraint system, or impinges on the head impact area, the entry and exit to the vehicle, or visibility.

Elsewhere on the RMS site - in the Modified and non-standard vehicles pages (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/regist ... ndard.html) they mention:

Owner-certified modifications
Modifications which add optional equipment to a vehicle can generally be owner-certified.
Non-standard modifications of a minor nature which do not affect the level of safety, strength or reliability of vital systems like brakes and steering, may also be owner-certified.
These modifications have little or no impact on the vehicle’s level of compliance with the Australian Design Rules.
The vehicle must still pass an identity and eSafety Check at an Authorised Unregistered Vehicle Inspection Station (AUVIS).

Which implies that (possibly) the Roll Bar does not need an eng cert?

What I would appreciate guidance/advice on:

1) Do I need to have the Roll Bar engineered?
2) Do I need anything else mentioned engineered? (I do not think so - the strut brace(s) fall into the suspension categories that allow these as far as I can see). The seats I am not so sure about but I think I do not need.
3) If eng cert required/needed/advised to do anyway, any recommendations as to who/where I could get done?

I live in Inner West Sydney and have researched the RMS site and links they have to Licensed Certifies.
There are a few nearby I could ask but I thought that members may have experience or recommendations of Certifiers they know/have dealt with etc.. Happy to travel if can recommend someone reliable and perhaps has dealt with MX5s/these particular requirements.

Any and all help with this is appreciated.

[bruce]

In Vic, you need a Roadworthy Certificate when applying for Club reg at VicRoads. If any of your mods get flunked for the RWC it is off to the Engineer.
Quickly reading your rendition of 'War and Peace', everything should be OK except for the roll bar. Then that might sneak through as well. Perhaps ring the RMS and query it?

[StillIC]

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Not in Sydney, but someone on here will know of an RMS certified Engineer.

Please note that the roll bar won't necessarily pass and you may have to remove it to get a blue slip before your classic rego. So it might be easiest to remove the roll cage first, then get the blue slip and classic rego without an engineering certificate. You always have the option of having it engineered in the future ;).

EDIT: a note on the seats. I believe they comply as they are from a car with a chassis that is in my mind the same (NB vs NA). The seats pass ADRs in a chassis that passes ADRs which is the same as the chassis of the car you have. And they bolt straight in. It wouldn't surprise me if someone chose to disagree on this point.

[greenMachine]

I have run a BD bar in all three of my NB MX5s, all registered in NSW, with no issue from rego. Inspection station says as long as bar does not intrude into cabin (ie behind seats) no problem. The BD bolts onto the seatbelt tower, I would argue that is not 'interfering'. Can't comment on your setup, but as long as the seatbelt structure is not altered, and the belt operates exactly as stock, you should be ok ... .

I'd be surprised if historic rego requirements were more restrictive than general rego, but I'd suggest sucking and seeing before spending money and/or undoing work already done. If you can talk to the people who will be doing the inspection first, that should set you straight.

[1600Dave]

Talk to the person who manages the historic rego scheme in the club you will organising it with. They would be the most knowledgeable (much more so than the call centre person you will talk to if you ring the RMS) and it is their interpretation of the requirements that you need to ultimately meet.

[bruce]

Perhaps ring the RMS and query it?

Yes, no point asking us as it is all hypothetical. The RMS has the ultimate say. If it's needs Engineering they should have a list of approved Engineers (ring a couple for quotes but I'd imagine they'd all cost roughly the same).

[Ven3li]

My general philosophy whenever an inspection is required is to take the car in exactly as it is now and let them tell you what you need to fix.

I used to try to get it right prior to inspections until I had to get a blue slip for my r32. It was the most modified car I have ever owned and there was just way too much work to bring it back to stock. Took it in as it was and they passed it first go, no changes needed.

Ever since then I don’t try to second guess what changes an inspector will require and I just let them tell me. Saves a lot of time and effort.

[StillIC]

Of interest:

Excerpt from:
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-06-light-vehicle-modifications.pdf

45 Roll bar installations.
Example requiring certification: • Installation of a roll bar which interferes with seat belt or child restraint anchorages, curtain airbags or any secondary restraint system, or impinges on the head impact area, the entry and exit to the vehicle, or visibility.

[Mr Morlock]

"Installation of a roll bar which interferes with seat belt or child restraint anchorages, curtain airbags or any secondary restraint system, or impinges on the head impact area, the entry and exit to the vehicle, or visibility".-The bar does impinge and on the road people run into the backs of cars and it can hit noggins- not good. I liked this one "as long as bar does not intrude into cabin" - well of course it does because it's inside the cabin! PS in Victoria the 30 year is based on build date. Make it easier not to bother with roll bars.

[1600Dave]

I liked this one "as long as bar does not intrude into cabin" - well of course it does because it's inside the cabin!

Thousands of utes out there with roll bars not in the cabin, but in the ute tray just behind the rear windscreen.

[Mr Morlock]

True about the utes- we dont sit in the tray banned decade ago but as for their efficacy is there a safety reason or just style. We also have giant bull bars on 4wds of all stripes - like to get hit by one of those- probably a case to ban them but Govt will not do that.

[rpost77]

Thanks for the replies.

Getting the impression that the answer is

1) No-one really knows
2) No-one has actual experience with exact circumstances
3) "Rules" as written/published not specific enough and open to interpretation
4) Best approach (probably) - talk to clubs reviewer. Try to get passed as is. If knocked back deal with that.

4 is the approach I will probably take - no point in spending money/time etc. if in the end do not have to - and if I then do - I do.

Not planning this anytime soon (probably next year sometime) but will try and remember to update this with whatever process/results when I do.

Thanks for the input.

[greenMachine]

Thanks for the replies.

Getting the impression that the answer is
..
4) Best approach (probably) - talk to clubs reviewer. Try to get passed as is. If knocked back deal with that.

I'd suggest a 'softer' approach to the inspection/inspector, "'what do you think about this?", or "how close is this to passing?".

Not planning this anytime soon (probably next year sometime) but will try and remember to update this with whatever process/results when I do.

If your car is eligible now, do it now, would be my advice. Regulations and requirement can change, they might get easier, they might get harder. If they change, and you are in the system, you are (normally) not affected. If you aren't, you will have to meet the new requirements. That is a gamble I try to avoid where possible - better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

[bruce]

It ain't that hard. If it passes blue slip/roadworthy, it passes rego and u can change it to Classic.

[StillIC]

…..
4) Best approach (probably) - talk to clubs reviewer. Try to get passed as is. If knocked back deal with that.
....

That may help, but the person you *really* need to talk to is the one doing the Blue Slip inspection, who may very well not be in your club. Once you have a blue slip, this should ease any concern your Club's registrar has. And it is the Blue Slip the police will be interested in when they question you as to the legality of your modifications, not what the Club Registrar thinks.