Engine failure - swap compatibility?

[Skifey]

Just realised that I should probably further my last post so I'll ask the question I'm obviously thinking;

What on god's green earth am I meant to do from here? I mean, what other possible causes can there be for a marble-in-a-tin-can noise and engine stall/failure? I assume it's not worth me buying a new engine from here unless I'm mistaken in my assessment of the current one being undamaged so where do I dig next?

[greenMachine]

Put a spanner on the big nut on the crank pulley, and turn it. If the engine is in the car still, and the battery connected, hit the ignition key - briefly. It should turn easily (no compression ) and quietly. If it makes noises, or does not want to turn easily and smoothly, try and track the source - maybe clutch, maybe water pump, or oil pump. Could be anything, but if it makes a noise it probably isn't an issue in the head.

Have a look at the valve gear - anything obvious there, any loose metal in the nooks and crannies? Using the big bolts on the camshaft sprockets, turn the cams. Because you are operating the valve springs, it will not be smooth - but it should be noise free.

They would be the first steps I would take.

[Skifey]

Put a spanner on the big nut on the crank pulley, and turn it. If the engine is in the car still, and the battery connected, hit the ignition key - briefly.

One or the other yea? As in I’m either using a spanner on the crank nut to turn it OR hitting the ignition briefly?
I’m assuming if it’s a broken/dislodged gear in the starter motor it’ll be easier to diagnose using the ignition method? A relative suggested this as a possible cause *shrug*

Because you are operating the valve springs, it will not be smooth - but it should be noise free.

That’s aside from the little tap/click noise it makes when the springs pop back and pop the camshaft back around yea? If so I did that already and it seems to be all smooth with no noise apart from that click every lobe rotation

[greenMachine]

Yes, one or the other. If you use the starter, be prepared for oil to come out of the galleries, not so much with the spanner.

In fact, it would be worth draining the oil, sacrificing a kitchen strainer to check what else may come out. There would be plenty of oil left to lubricate the bearings in a no-load situation and less mess.

[Skifey]

I just turned both cam gears and all the valves appear to be moving correctly and the only noise is the flick when the lobes roll over as per my last post.

As for the block; I tried both methods you suggested. I put a spanner on it and it turned quite easily. No noises; scraping, grinding or banging or any kind. There is a tad of coolant droplets throughout the cylinder wall though.

I then reconnected the battery and tried the ignition. SIDE NOTE: Soooo cool to see the pistons moving haha! The pistons moved up and down smoothly but there was definitely a noise! It was the same noise the engine made after it initially stalled and failed. Like a whirring. Almost like a buzzy power tool. I’m assuming that’s not meant to happen and that’s my problem?

I know you said it should be quiet but I don’t know what exactly is ‘quiet’ for this situation. As in, should be near noiseless?

I’m trying to find a way of uploading the video; I’ll tap back shortly!

[93_Clubman]

reconnected the battery and tried the ignition. same noise the engine made after it initially stalled and failed. Like a whirring. Almost like a buzzy power tool.

Sounding like from starter motor-flywheel-clutch area.

[hks_kansei]

If they starter makes a whir and doesn't turn the engine over it's most likely a sticky solenoid.
They have a little gear on they end that pops out to grab they teeth on they flywheel.

If the solenoid fails the gearv won't pop out and just free spins.
Otherwise, if the teeth on they flywheel have stripped it can make a similar noise

[greenMachine]

The pistons moved up and down smoothly but there was definitely a noise! It was the same noise the engine made after it initially stalled and failed. Like a whirring. Almost like a buzzy power tool.

So the starter is spinning the crank, right? A whirring sound seems to me to be normal. I don't think you have yet isolated a problem.

You are looking for 'broken' sounds, and what I am 'hearing' from you seems like all is working OK - starter, crank/rods/pistons, flywheel, oil pump. It might be alternator, though I doubt that, but check it anyway by spinning by hand.

That leaves clutch and gearbox, maybe diff. Jack up the rear, and do some more 'spins', one in each gear. If that doesn't produce 'it's broken' noises, spin the engine again with the clutch pedal depressed.

If nothing shows up after all this, I think it might be time to get a proper mechanic involved.

[greenMachine]

I have just re-read your first post, and taken on board HKS last post.

1. Are the 'broken' noises the same, comparing the first and last time they occurred? This may just be the usual clackety-clack of hydraulic lifters that are not working until oil pressure builds, or not, hard to tell without having been there. The fact that the car stopped is not encouraging me to think this is your fundamental problem though - stuck lifters are noisy but not terminal in themselves.

2. HKS may be correct, it could be a starter problem that is intermittent. In your rebuild, get a new/overhauled one. But a busted starter just doesn't start usually, unless the pinion jams the ring gear - check both for signs of damage, replace ring gear (or flywheel) if the teeth are damaged.

3. Do the diagnostics I suggested above, for science, and to rule out any other drivetrain issues. When you pull the engine, check the clutch closely and replace if anything odd appears.

4. If nothing surfaces from all the foregoing, put it all out of your mind, do your rebuild carefully and taking no shortcuts. What caused the/any problem is then in the past, and you can go forward with a sound engine that has been thoroughly reconditioned.

[Skifey]

I couldn't get the video directly to the forums so I've just uploaded to youtube privately and left a link below for you guys. Sorry that it's not more convenient! I'm hoping (secretly) that a few of you will check that and recognise the noise immediately. Here's to hoping!

https://youtu.be/afBKGEEOVQo

If they starter makes a whir and doesn't turn the engine over it's most likely a sticky solenoid.
They have a little gear on they end that pops out to grab they teeth on they flywheel.

When you say 'turn the engine over', I just want to make sure I'm understanding perfectly so apologies if the question is stupid. That means that the crankshaft is turning, thus the pistons are moving up and down etc, correct?

1. Are the 'broken' noises the same, comparing the first and last time they occurred?

Yea, the initial banging/tapping/loud 'what the hell was that' noise hasn't happened since this whole thing happened when the engine shut off. The whirring sound though, when I tried to start it again immediately after is the same as the whirring I'm hearing now.

2. HKS may be correct, it could be a starter problem that is intermittent. In your rebuild, get a new/overhauled one. But a busted starter just doesn't start usually, unless the pinion jams the ring gear - check both for signs of damage, replace ring gear (or flywheel) if the teeth are damaged.

Dumb question but ummm... where is the starter on a BP engine haha! I don't actually know :O

4. If nothing surfaces from all the foregoing, put it all out of your mind, do your rebuild carefully and taking no shortcuts. What caused the/any problem is then in the past, and you can go forward with a sound engine that has been thoroughly reconditioned.

On this note I'll have thousands of questions which I may be asking very shortly but for the time being I'll focus on diagnosing the actual problem

[KevGoat]

As a complete novice no idea ... don't suppose the original sound was the teeth stripping on the starter and now it's just turning? I haven't a clue about starters so is that even possible?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Skifey]

@KevGoat
This has actually been my exact line of thinking ever since I took the head off and found no damage...
Perhaps we're both fools or perhaps not - we'll find out soon enough when the pros come into this thread and share their wisdom

[hks_kansei]

If they starter makes a whir and doesn't turn the engine over it's most likely a sticky solenoid.
They have a little gear on they end that pops out to grab they teeth on they flywheel.

When you say 'turn the engine over', I just want to make sure I'm understanding perfectly so apologies if the question is stupid. That means that the crankshaft is turning, thus the pistons are moving up and down etc, correct?

Correct.

The starter essentially works by grabbing the flywheel and using an electric motor to rotate the crank/pistons/etc a few times until ones of the pistons ignites the fuel and the engine can then use it's momentum to continue running.

Since the starter doesnt need to spin unless you're starting the engine the little drive gear on the end of it retracts as you let go of the key, so the starter can sit there doing nothing.


Sometimes the solenoid that makes that little drive gear move in and out can fail, which means that the starter can spin, but since it's not actually engaging with the flywheel it makes a strange "whiiiirrrrr" noise, like a power drill.

Sometimes what can also happen is that a previous owner has accidentally turned the key with the engine already running, which means the starter gear slams into the teeth on the flywheel, and can break a few off.
If that happens you'll find that every so often the engine will make a whir sound since the starter is lined up with the gap in the teeth.

if either of these happen the crank wont turn at all while you're trying to start the car.



(also be aware that if you're using the starter on an engine with the spark plugs removed, or the head removed, you can also hear a whir sound, since the starter has minimal load on it since it no longer has to push past the compression of each cylinder.

[hks_kansei]

just looked

DIdnt realise you had the whole head off.

The whir noise is normal in this instance, and not a sign of starter damage etc.


it's just from lack of load on the starter since without the head it's not having to push each cylinder past compression.

[93_Clubman]

Yeah, I'm not hearing anything in your Youtube clip that sounds concerning. From your Sat AM post I thought the concerning noise had reoccurred.