V-Sport AP ARacing 296mm 4 Piston NA/NB Front Brake Setup

[Luke]

Hey guys
I have front brake upgrade requirements as I bought a SE with 200KW ATW from a fellow forum member, Tony.
Consequently now I need better front brakes for the track work I do which is something Tony did tell me that would be required.
I am burning through the front NB8B setup at a ridiculous rate at the moment just in short sprint events.

After a bit of asking some of the MX-5 cup people they have suggested I look at a AP Racing front brake kit that V-Sport puts together for NA/NB's.
I was driving past them a few weeks ago so dropped in to have a quick look.
It comes with:
2x4 Piston Radial Mount callipers, CP9200-4S0BG/CP9200-250BG (Not 100% sure this is the correct model, but that was what they showed me)
2x DBA 296x28mm rotors
2x Bosnjak Engineering Hats for NA/NB
Mounting Kit
I did not ask if it came with brake lines. I assume it would.

This kit supposedly squeezes into some 15 inch rims.
Now my number 1 priority is keeping the 15 inch rims. Preferably the ones I already have which are 2 sets of Advanti Storm 15x8, Buddyclub P1 15x8. I have other 15's which I know likely will not fit any multi piston brake setup

Does anyone here have this kit V-Sport AP Racing brake kit?
Any comments on performance etc?
What rims are you running?
If you are Sydney based, is it possible for me to come over and test fit some of the rims I have?

[greenMachine]

Very interested in your findings Luke! I have never heard of this option before.

One question I would ask is whether they can be engineered? That would require dust seals basically. My googling says they do come with 'dirt seals', so that box is ticked. So if V-Sport know of some that have been engineered, or your inquiries turn up people that have done it, that would get me very interested indeed!!

I have been looking at the Trackspeed kits, there are Dynapro's (I think, certainly not Dynalights) with dust seals, but I have not gone to the point of determining whether they directly interchange with the callipers in their kits.

On a related note, how is your consumption of front wheel bearings, and as far as that goes, front hubs? If you are chewing through front brakes, you must be loading up the front end, and that will take its toll of those ...

[Luke]

Only done one club trackday at Wakefield and one Supersprint at SMSP GP so far, so hubs are still fine. They are repacked with whatever high temp grease Tony put in them. I have a few spares packed with Amsoil Dominator ready to go with long studs as well. I just have plenty more pad wear than the my previous SE, but 70-80KW will do that. Both cars had the exact same brake duct kit as well. Oh and yes it has DBA 4000 rotors with the colour change stripes. They are all white so the rotors are getting very hot. Would make good photos for Rob if we did night club days.

I have done a bit of research into other options, all subjective word of mouth and internet rumour of course. These are my thoughts on the other options.

I have looked into the various 11.75inch Wilwood offerings. They all seem to use some iteration or copy of the V8 Roadster 8 mounting point Hat.
To me it became to hard to pick a kit out as there are to many options and there is one major common flaw in all the kits.
The calliper choice gets confusing.
First off you have Radial or Lug mount. Most of the kits don't tell you what specific part number caliper is in the kit let alone the mounting type.
Obviously the 4 Piston Dynalite calliper gets crossed off the list. The pads are tiny. I can't believe anyone would even buy these for a 11.75 kit.
Even the 4 piston Lug Mount Dynapro pads are a bit smaller than standard NB8B pads. They are also only 12mm thick, which includes the backing plate. Radial Mount are the same shape but 16mm thick.
Trackspeed seem to offer the most comprehensive range of Wilwood Calipers including the stronger 4 piston Superlite, same pad shape as Dynapro, just it is 20mm thick. That is the one I would be most interested in as you have more than 50% more pad material for very little extra per pad in $$$, but it does not fit the Advanti 15x8's I have.
I was also half interested in the 6 Piston DynaPro as the pad has a larger surface area, but same 12mm thickness, so should last longer than the 4 piston dynapro pads. Plus 6 piston bragging rights. No idea if they fit my rims though.
949/Supermiata sell a unique kit that have Radial Mount 4 piston Dynapro's that use 16mm thick pads instead of the 12mm thick pads that everyone elses Dynapro kit has. I assume every other 4 piston dynapro kit is Lugmount in that case. They also offer their own branded better rotors.
V8 Roadster offers a setup with Stop Tech ST42/ST42R Callipers which would be more inline with Wilwood Superlites. They also offer the Radial and Lug Mount Dynapro 4 piston calliper. Can also get better PFC rotors but only with STR calliper
Goodwin offer the kit with a far superior AP Racing Friction Ring. But only use the 4 piston dynapro lugmount caliper. Not sure how to option the 6 piston on their site, yet they offer it separately.
However all these American Wilwood based mix and match kits have one major flaw in common that scares me off. The rotors are only 20.5mm thick!!! Seen a few of the 280x20.5mm kits fail at the track. I still have not seen a car in person that has one of these 11.75 kits. I know Beavis' car has one from what I saw in a YouTube clip, but that's it. All the American sites say they are all the brake you will ever need, but they also used to say that about the 280mm kits as well.

The other option would seem to be Yellow Speed as they are 286x26mm with the 6 Piston Calliper. But they just seem to be a White lable product to me. I can find what looks like the exact same spec setup from Ceika, K-Sport, ATTKD etc etc. Plus the people that I have asked that have Yellow Speed were the same people that suggested to go investigate V-Sports Ap Racing setup. Long term spares would be my biggest concern for any of these kits. Plus they are not cheap anymore. $1700 is a bit steep for what is really an unknown Chinese/Taiwan copy cat product. When they were only $1200 many years ago they were definitely worth it. On the plus side, I know they would fit my Buddyclub 15x8's as I've seen it done, and would probably fit my Advanti Storm 15x8's as well.



Maybe once we get some more info on this V-Sport AP Setup we can get a group buy happening as they are more pricey than most other kits. I did not get a quote but it was indicated to me verbally on the day I had a peek to be around $2600 with no pads. Then again quality normally does cost more and being a heavier rotor setup, consumable use should be reduced with lower temps, so hopefully lower running costs in the long run.

[project.r.racing]

I don't have experience with the specific AP kit you have questioned about. But anything bigger than 280mm is a complete guessing game for 15inch rims. Up to 280mm would be fine.

In saying that. AT some point you will need to increase the rotor size. Just keeping similar rotor sizes and increasing pistons and pad sizes will allow more braking forces applied to the rotor, you are probably gonna use up the pads and rotors at a similar rate. So going a bigger rotor just means the wheels will have to be sacrificed.

[greenMachine]

Thanks Luke, we have walked similar paths on this upgrade, but you have gone further than me.

Cutting to the chase, a group buy is an idea worth pursuing. It will look expensive compared to the sticker price of an imported product, but the hidden costs of importing quality gear (freight, GST, exchange rate) will bring the two closer. A major plus is the fact that these (presumably, because dust seals) can be engineered for legal road use - as far as I can see none of the established kit sellers have this option. Also, in my mind at least, AP has more cred than either Stoptech or Wilwood, and with the(?) AP distributor just a few klicks from me, that is another plus.

It may be too soon to judge if a GB would have any legs, as none of the other performance oriented SE people have spoken here, but a price on a discounted buy may flush sufficient out to make it work.

[Roadrunner]

When I was enquiring about pads a year ago, V-sport put the AP kit up as an option:

"We do have a brake kit available at a reasonable price. It uses 296mm DBA rotors on a custom hat with AP Racing 4 piston calipers. The pads the kit comes with are DS2500 but other option can be purchased at an additional cost.
Will come with brake hoses, AP fluid and all necessary mounting hardware. It's $2500 and will open you up to a much wider range of pad options, most of which are in stock"

I'm not overly interested in a kit myself, trying to keep the car as street civil as possible, even if that means not pushing as hard on the track.

[track_addict]

Have you read the massive brake thread on miataturbo? It’s worth a look. The Americans who have the fastest “miatas” in the world are running variations of the off the shelf BBK’s. If it works for those guys and cars, it’s more than enough for you. Having a thick pad means nothing if it’s over heating, has a flimsy caliper etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rossint]

What pads are you running?
I run the V8 roadsters 11.75” kit with dynapro lug mount calliper, DTC60 front and DTC30 rear pads. No brake ducts, NB2 rear brakes and a bias valve. The cars an NA6 making around 180kw and my local track is very brake heavy, biggest stop is 190km down to 50km in under 200m. This setup works very well for me, I’ve done 7-8hrs on it and have less than 1/2 front pad wear and plenty of the cheap wilwood rotor that came with the kit left.
Pads are cheap and there’s a few good options for rotors depending on how much money you want to throw at it. I’m pretty sure the V8R kit has the best hat design as far as fitting under wheels go.

[greenMachine]

Ross, have you had your brakes engineered for road use? What is the part number for the caliper?

Thanks

Ed

[16bit]

i use to have an ap racing front brake kit on mine.

that caliper they use is a decent chunk bigger than the one on my car and the disks are 20mm bigger.

judging by the trouble I had to get that kit to fit a 15 inch wheel i would hazard a guess it won't fit. unless they can prove it fits a 15inch (specific wheel and specs of customer who runs it) wheel i would say it doesn't fit and won't even come close.

I now have a wilwood brake kit - https://fab9tuning.com/wilwood-dynapro- ... kit-90-05/

I switched because replacement rotors for the ap racing kit where getting on for 1000 dollars.

that being said i could sell you my kit, you would just need to get some new rotors are some point (possibly now). i know for a fact the kit fits.

[Luke]

Have you read the massive brake thread on miataturbo? It’s worth a look. The Americans who have the fastest “miatas” in the world are running variations of the off the shelf BBK’s. If it works for those guys and cars, it’s more than enough for you. Having a thick pad means nothing if it’s over heating, has a flimsy caliper etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL, I was waiting for the more than enough comment to creep up.
I was almost going to put something about that in the original post but held back.
Also noted the "fastest" quote as well. Been to USA, and guess what there are Billboards everywhere that say worlds best, worlds biggest, worlds longest etc etc. All I can say is they love their marketing.

I have seen that thread as well as other smaller ones.
Seen the commenst that the Stoptech ST42's are stronger than WIlwoods and of course the suppliers that only sell Wilwoods say they are unnecessary.
I look at it like this, the Americans use those setups, because that is what is locally available to them, so it works out economical for them as well. Hence why other cheap Chinese/Taiwan copy setups like Yellow Speed or similar have never really make any headway over there as they end up being dearer for them.
When I look at it from an Australian point of view, I have to pay a large amount for shipping due to weight, and now you even have to pay GST even for a $1 item as well.

Surely this AP calliper is far superior to any Wilwood offering.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go Wilwood, but if the V-Sport AP Kit does fit, I can't see why I wouldn't go with AP Kit.

What pads are you running?
I run the V8 roadsters 11.75” kit with dynapro lug mount calliper, DTC60 front and DTC30 rear pads. No brake ducts, NB2 rear brakes and a bias valve. The cars an NA6 making around 180kw and my local track is very brake heavy, biggest stop is 190km down to 50km in under 200m. This setup works very well for me, I’ve done 7-8hrs on it and have less than 1/2 front pad wear and plenty of the cheap wilwood rotor that came with the kit left.
Pads are cheap and there’s a few good options for rotors depending on how much money you want to throw at it. I’m pretty sure the V8R kit has the best hat design as far as fitting under wheels go.

Winmax W7 up front, 6.5 on the rear. That's what I was given with the car.
Previous SE had Carbotech XP12 up front and XP10 on the rear.

The Winmax's definitely feel better. I don't think the XP12's would survive in this car as they were borderline in the previous one.

i use to have an ap racing front brake kit on mine.

that caliper they use is a decent chunk bigger than the one on my car and the disks are 20mm bigger.

judging by the trouble I had to get that kit to fit a 15 inch wheel i would hazard a guess it won't fit. unless they can prove it fits a 15inch (specific wheel and specs of customer who runs it) wheel i would say it doesn't fit and won't even come close.

I now have a wilwood brake kit - https://fab9tuning.com/wilwood-dynapro- ... kit-90-05/

I switched because replacement rotors for the ap racing kit where getting on for 1000 dollars.

that being said i could sell you my kit, you would just need to get some new rotors are some point (possibly now). i know for a fact the kit fits.

That wouldn't be the CP7611-1001 Kit??? All made by AP Racing.
CP7611 Calipers
276x24mm rotors CP7600D46-APF404
Hats, made by AP as well I gather

Yep I agree that wheel fitment will be the biggest problem and that is why I am posting here, to see who has this V-Sport AP Racing Kit and what wheels they run.



While I am at it I will say one dumb off topic thing.
Why does Renault put 312x28mm Rotors with Massive Brembo 4 Piston Callipers on my little 147.5KW(Crank) Clio RS???
If I went by the US Miata brake thread, I would be downsizing the brakes on the Clio because surely Renault had no idea what they were doing.

[track_addict]

I’m not buying that it’s just marketing, them the fastest mx5’s in the world. The 949 and Goodwin shop cars are top of the pile. The 949 car is more online with what most people would do. Turbo BP, off the shelf this and that. Makes 400hp and capable of a sustained 1.5g due to aero. When a car is going that fast, it’s the best type of advertising for their products.

I hear you on the annoyance of having to pay gst on top of getting reamed by the dollar conversion. I wish a local shop would import the bbk’s.

The AP caliper will be worlds a head of the wilwood, no one can dispute that. I have a custom AP kit that I bought of green machine a while back. Not on the car due to the top hat not being ideal but I will get them on there this year. My kit uses a 280x26mm dba ring for an Elise. I actually have more clearance than the stock brakes did to the design of the caliper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenMachine]

Luke, like me (I think - correct me Luke if necessary) runs a dual duty car. It is registered, as is mine, and we have to get it inspected every year for rego. Generally, they look at the brakes, if only to see if you are out of pad. When they see Wilwood, or AP, or any other brand, a bell rings, and then they realise that this car did not come with those calipers. "Where is your engineer's certificate for those brakes?" is almost an inevitable question for the first time it is inspected.

I for one am not spending the time and effort, not to mention the money, putting on a BBK which can't be engineered. Between rego and insurance, I want my car legal, and not have my insurance write me off for unapproved mods, or rego knock me back for mods that have not been signed off by an engineer. As stated above, none of those American kits have calipers which have dust seals, which (as I understand it) are required for an engineer to sign off their use. The AP kit does.

If those BBKs from across the pond can come with substitute calipers that do have dust seals, a whole new world of brakes opens up to us who have registered cars. But they don't appear to do so.

A word on Bosnjak, who apparently supplies the hats for these VSport BBKs. He is the business offering replacement front hubs for NA/NBs, presumably ones that don't break like the stockers, and which bearings can be replaced without buying new hubs. Clearly he has people lined up to pay significant money for NA/NB MX5 extreme duty hardware. This gives me more confidence in this kit.

Wheel fitment is the other issue, and I think I will be taking a walk along the MX5 Cup paddock, to identify who is using this kit and what wheels they have mounted. The other avenue is to get a template from vSport of the caliper/hub dimensions, to which a wheel must comply.

[track_addict]

Wilwood does calipers with dust boots, which I believe can be optioned on the American kits. They’re noted as catching fire and disintegrating on the track though. Might have to be a consumable item?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StuwieP]

I have Wilwood dynapro calipers with dust boots about to go through engineering. Greenmachine this was your old setup, less the calipers.

I will let you know how things turn out on that front (and the boots catching fire on the track, since it will go there too).

Edit: also, where does everyone source their rotors for these BBKs - I've seen mention of cheap replacement rotors but no idea where to find them...