NB8A timing advance and fuel choice

[NitroDann]

Mazda has no incentive to recommend e10 for older cars.

None at all. No wonder the lawyers recommend they simply suggest against it. And that doesnt convince me.

Running countless oem fuel systems on E85 trouble free is what has convinced me.

I sell turbo manifolds for garret turbos. If someone asks me should they try their borg warner on it im going to tell them thats its not designed for or recommended for it because I dont want to be liable for it not fitting.

That doesnt stop the guy from fitting it and finding that it works well.

Dann

[Mr Morlock]

Nitro ..."Mazda has no incentive to recommend e10 for older cars.

None at all. No wonder the lawyers recommend they simply suggest against it. And that doesnt convince me".

The above is total speculation and there is no reason that Mazda or other car companies would not say it was safe to run ethanol in model X made from X if the engineers know that the car has compatible components.They dont do it because they dont recommend it. Mazda specify ok from 2005 I think. Years ago they took lead out of petrol and older cars sometimes suffer because of issues such as damage to valve seats- materials and contruction changed.

Getting performance using E85 for performance car is not the same as a car used daily over many kms. The only way one could prove there is no deleterious affect is a large sample size and engineering tests and strip down. No one is going to do that- people may opt for performance because thats the only goal not using the car for a daily commute. The dragsters guys care nought for longevity.

You can drink Coke daily as well but its unhealthy. No ethanol for my cars.

[NitroDann]

Thats your opinion. And I have mine.

Dann

[Mr Morlock]

Following advice from the makers seems sound to me.

[NitroDann]

Just like putting the garrett on my kit is sound advice but only a fool would pretend that no other product can work the same or better.

Dann

[hks_kansei]

I think Mazda are just taking the saw approach, when the NA was around ethanol in fuel wasn't really a concern, so they never tested if it worked.
When faced with an answer of maybe, the safe option is to say "no"
To comfortably say yes they'd need to test all the old gear they used at the time, which would be pointless for a car they haven't sold for 20 years.


After 2005, ethanol was more common, so they tested the late NB and worked out it was fine.


So while Mazda don't recommend it's use, it's more a "we aren't sure because we haven't tried it, so we'll just say no"

The users outside of Mazda however have tried, and from the sounds of it it is ok (not from mazdas design, more from a fluke that the materials used can do both)

[hks_kansei]

Think of it like aspirin, it was only ever designed for pain relief, and only recommended for that.

But years after Bayer created it, doctors and outside users discovered that it just happened to also be good to help prevent strokes etc, and so now it's commonly prescribed for that reason. Despite having never been designed for that purpose, and never originally recmended for it.

[Mr Morlock]

To conclude that there is no problem with ethanol use on older cars because car makers may not check those vehicles is not sound. They know how the engines and fuel systems are designed and the materials used. The engineers are fully aware of the specs and materials used in the cars. The listings are clear they nominate a date or a model and the message is that prior to the date 2005 for MX-5 it does not get a tick. The NC was a new car and we can be sure it was specced not to give problems with ethanol. You put the stuff in the tank at your now risk.

Plenty of references
"Most new cars and many models dating back to the introduction of unleaded fuel in 1986 will happily accept E10. If you’re not certain, it’s easy to find out. Do make sure though, because E10 can damage fuel delivery systems if it is not suitable.

The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI), maintains a website where you can check if your car can run on E10. In a statement on the website, the FCAI recommends vehicle owners always fuel their cars in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations".

[NitroDann]

To conclude that there is no problem with ethanol use on older cars because car makers may not check those vehicles is not sound.

Nobody said that.

What I said is that NA and NB MX5s have proven to have had no problems in my experience working on dozens and dozens using 85% ethanol as a fuel, and that therefor E10 is something i would be comfortable with.

Dann

[siege]

Tbh the anti-ethanol sentiment seems to be mostly politically motivated.

Whereas on the other hand it can be seen as cheap fuel (in the case of E10) or racegas (in the case of e85) available at the pump. And the reality is we'll all be using more of it in the future because it comes from sugar cane which we can grow more of vs dinosaurs which we can't.

[manga_blue]

My Camry ...

You have a Camry???!!!

[NitroDann]

Drag race me!

Yeah its an excellent ridiculously cheap appliance.

Dann

Edit:

Actually Manga, you'd have liked my last one (maybe). It was a 2000 Touring Manual, with the final version of the non VVT 1MZ. It had a bunch of extra timing and desensitized knock sensors, a stealth intake, 2 of it's 4 engine mounts scratch made poly mounts and it was actually pretty respectable in the 'Australian Sedan National traffic light competition'.

Lol

Once a car modifier always a car modifier, I guess.

[Mr Morlock]

ethanol is not cheaper for normal passenger cars because its not as efficient as far as l/100 klm is concerned- You can read comparison on that as well. There is reasoned resistance to ethanol - read the debates- its dríven by opportunism not a benefit for the user. There are a lot of things the community would be better off without but business exerts the pressure. The public will use E10 because it has the illusion of being cheap and hardly anyone will take the trouble to question any facts.

Nitro- yes somebody did say "So while Mazda don't recommend it's use, it's more a "we aren't sure because we haven't tried it, so we'll just say no" I still think the advice and information on the internet is pretty clear i.e. use it for motors that are compatible with it. Its clear to me and backed by motoring organisations to check compatibility. Nitro said earlier we can have differing opinions- yes we can. I do actually change my mind on things - I started of using E10 but now avoid it.

[NitroDann]

Yes it has to be 4% cheaper at the pump to break even.

Thats info worth sharing for sure.

Dann

[IanR]

So I am reading this thread, trying to see the different opinions and hoping to slipstream some wisdom from MrMorlock... but then I remember that ethanol as fuel is about extra potential power... not extra economy or longevity. I only did 10,000k on e85 before i sold it so I cant say it would last 1,000,000ks but I dont care nor did I have 1 issue because of the fuel, the car made loads of good power and has run for now 2 years and 20k+. How healthy does it need to be? btw I dont smoke tobacco or drink coke or take asparin because I BELIEVE that they are not healthy...haha but I am aware loads of old people have done all three and they are 90+, I just dont see the benefit outweighing the risks. Car parts are more easily replaced than body parts perhaps?