Using gutted HLA as a Shim Under Bucket alternative.

[hks_kansei]

so whats all this stuff about solid lifters ?

I'm starting to get tempted to just throw in the HLA's on the 1.8.....with big lift cams....

My understanding is that HLA need to have the cams ground differently to a solid, softer lobe ramps if I recall, to avoid smashing the hla to pieces.

Solids can take harsher ramps etc for more lift and all that.


The weight thing seems to be more about keeping valve bounce at bay, which if you're racing or revving high would be needed, but for oem redline I'm guessing (note, GUESSING) that as long as it's not heavier than factory it should be good.

[hks_kansei]

With the converted HLA lifters, isn't the gap too large for a single shim or are the B6 central stem longer or something?.

That's really my only concern too.

But yeah, not sure how much the HLA moves from maxminum to minimum lash, if its a few tenths, or 10mm.

[StanTheMan]

I'm a weekend warrior.....It might see the track.....but not often.
The HLA's I do have are of questionable state of repair. I have no idea how to tell a bad one.....apart from maybe not having any play when pressing them.

I think I'll just stick with the solids.....piece of mind

[StanTheMan]

With the converted HLA lifters, isn't the gap too large for a single shim or are the B6 central stem longer or something?.

That's really my only concern too.

But yeah, not sure how much the HLA moves from maxminum to minimum lash, if its a few tenths, or 10mm.

i'll take some pics tomorrow.

But I do recall the HLA's sit a lot higher than the solid lifters.......
certanly in the BP....but that could be because the valves are longer?

[madjak]

I think the ramp angles on cams are an issue for a standard HLA as it can overcome the oil pressure inside and you get valve float. For shim over bucket solids it can spit the shim off the bucket. But the converted HLA I think would be as good as a mazdaspeed solid lifter as long as the extra shim space doesn't cause issues at revs.

On my head I used to run two shims, one on the valve, one on the lifter as the gap due to the smaller base circle cams was too big for a single shim that I had (but I have since found out that you can get custom length shims from Precision Shims). On my recent rebuild I sunk the new valves further into the head and doing so reduced the shim gap from 4-5mm to 3-4mm so I'm now running a single shim under the mazdaspeed SuBs. I think a single shim is better for high revs (I'm up to 9000rpm now) but then I had never lost a shim when running two... even with some valve float.

So I'd be quite happy to run converted HLAs if I could source a single shim long enough that also has a big overlap (more than 2mm) where it fits over the lifter stem. I doubt it would cause issues even over 8000rpm.

[greenMachine]

This thread is going in all directions at once!

Modified cams on HLAs - nothing to do with HLAs to SUBs.

Ramp angle discussion - nothing to do with HLAs to SUBs.

With the converted HLA lifters, isn't the gap too large for a single shim or are the B6 central stem longer or something?

Nope. Not mine. If you re-read my post, I reused some of my shims, and they were tiny - ie very small gap to fill between the post (part of the HLA left after gutting) and the top of the valve stem. As I said, they have lived for years in my race engine with 8000 rpm limit, so I don't think life is an issue. Weight may be, I haven't weighed mine so I can't tell.

[hks_kansei]

Nope. Not mine. If you re-read my post, I reused some of my shims, and they were tiny - ie very small gap to fill between the post (part of the HLA left after gutting) and the top of the valve stem. As I said, they have lived for years in my race engine with 8000 rpm limit, so I don't think life is an issue. Weight may be, I haven't weighed mine so I can't tell.

Do I read that correctly as you having used the original NB style flat shims and put them inside the HLA? (between the two halves)

As opposed to using the supertech style cap shims on the valve?

[greenMachine]

Nope. Not mine. If you re-read my post, I reused some of my shims, and they were tiny - ie very small gap to fill between the post (part of the HLA left after gutting) and the top of the valve stem. As I said, they have lived for years in my race engine with 8000 rpm limit, so I don't think life is an issue. Weight may be, I haven't weighed mine so I can't tell.

Do I read that correctly as you having used the original NB style flat shims and put them inside the HLA? (between the two halves)

As opposed to using the supertech style cap shims on the valve?

No, I was replacing like-for-like. My SUB-style buckets were stuffed by the breaking up of the hard facing on the welded cams. Those buckets were replaced with HLAs gutted of the mechanism.

The shims are designed to sit on the stem of the valve, and are little more than an inverted cup with a small lip to hold them in place, total diameter not much greater than the diameter of the valve stem.

Having been forced to think about this process after several years, I am now of a mind that the stuffed buckets were probably gutted HLAs too (I never took much notice of them, for the obvious reason), Gary built my engine to a budget and it might have been cheaper to convert HLAs, or maybe he had these in stock, or maybe ... who knows.

[StanTheMan]

bit like that?

Lash caps.JPG

so because your HLA were toast....you didn't actually rip them apart and got the appropriate size lash caps to go over the top of the valsve to make up the extra distance? these ones go up to about 2.8 mm

[greenMachine]

bit like that?
Lash caps.JPG

Yes.

so because your CONVERTED HLA were toast....you didn't actually rip them apart and got the appropriate size lash caps to go over the top of the valves to make up the extra distance? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID

As I said above, some of my shims were the correct size, some could be adjusted (ground down) and some had to be bought. Because when you do this sort of a job, you end up with 16 shims of mixed sizes, and 16 new shim sizes required, and so you mix and match to minimise the number of shims needed to be bought. At least that is what I did.

Let me recap. Cams failed, damaging my SUB buckets. New cams acquired. Damaged SUB buckets turfed, salvaging shims for possible re-use. Set HLAs acquired, and gutted. New SUB buckets installed (no shims). New cams installed, clearances measured and recorded. Target clearance subtracted from measured clearance, deriving shim sizes. Salvaged shims checked for sizes, to see which can be reused as-is, which can be resized, and what new shims to order. When all shims on hand, remove cams, lift bucket No1 and install correct shim, rinse and repeat. Reinstall cams, check clearances. Repeat if any clearances out of spec. Bloody fiddly, but very simple process really.

As I said above, this was several years ago, and that is the process my memory recalls. I am sure there will be tricks that I didn't know about, or things I have forgotten, so happy for others to chip in.

[project.r.racing]

Since people have been doing this process for 20+ years. There is a lot of information out there that google finds quickly.

I understand why there is debate and questioning within this thread considering the above facts.

[StanTheMan]

sometimes no matter how much you read.....you still have to connect the dots. Some peeps are just better at it than others. For me, sometimes it takes someone to just say it in different words.

we are becoming more & more like MT.

but thankfully. were not like face book groups

[hks_kansei]

Yeah, I checked Google and there was very little about gutting a hydro.

Heaps of info if I was gutting one from a small block chev, but not that much on mx5s.

Was more t make sure that the gutting didn't create so much excess lash that you'd never get a lash cap to take up the gap.

[project.r.racing]

Yeah, I checked Google and there was very little about gutting a hydro.

Your google fu is low...

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=miat ... e&ie=UTF-8

[cookie]

A while ago I bought a head with cams, springs, lifters etc. The thing was toast. So I gutted it, upon finding they looked like stock hla lifter. I was angry at this point as I was thinking I'd been totally ripped off. Turns out what I had were converted shims. The motor made 400kw, 8500rpm Rev limit before being torn down. They were toda inserts. See the attached photos. Not sure if this is helpful at all. Certainly confused me at the time!

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