Using gutted HLA as a Shim Under Bucket alternative.

[hks_kansei]

Random thoughts from today at my desk bored.

Instead of buying costly Shim under bucket lifters and all that jazz, is it instead possible to use a HLA with the valving removed etc, so it’s always collapsed so to speak.

And then use the usual 6mm lash caps on the valve tips to set the clearances.

Essentially using the HLA as a shim under bucket setup.


Google suggests (yeah, not 100% how much I’d trust these) that a gutted HLA is between the Supertech SUB and the OEM SOB in weight (ie: slightly lighter than OEM, not as light as supertech)
So while you wouldn't want to rev the tits out of the car, for a street application and a give or take OEM rev limit, it should be fine.

If so, it could be a FAR cheaper way to convert, since you could grab a heap of HLAs from a wrecked 323 for bugger all (who cares if they’ve collapsed if you’re gutting them anyway)

Used HLA, maybe $1 each, $16 total.
Supertech buckets $500 or so, depending on exchange rate
Mazdaspeed buckets, $250 or so, depending on exchange.


If it’s possible it turns an NB cam swap from a ~$1000 job, into a ~$600 job.


The only issue I could foresee is if the HLA won’t fit together properly with the valving removed, or if when it’s removed it’s got so much lash that you’d need ridiculously thick shims to bring it back into spec (especially if the intention is to use reground cams with a smaller base circle)


Interested to hear thoughts.

[madjak]

Maruha sells the solid converters to do it.

I'm not sure how much it's really worth it though considering a set of solid lifters aren't that much anyway and if you are doing HLA to solid lifters you are probably changing cams, springs and maybe valves anyway.

[hks_kansei]

True, for bigger cams you'd be doing springs etc.

I'm more talking for a budget build and mild cams, nothing too crazy.

And for an NB, so basically going from shim-over solids, to shim-under.

On an NA for mild cams you'd just use the hydros and call it done.

[greenMachine]

Yes, done that.

As a result of the failure of some welded cams, the buckets went south with them.

I gutted the HLAs and used SUBs, worked well though as I recall it the gutting was a fiddly process.

[hks_kansei]

Yes, done that.

I gutted the HLAs and used SUBs, worked well though as I recall it the gutting was a fiddly process.

Fiddlyness aside, was it as simple as yanking out the valving? Or did you have to machine up spacers to go inside the now empty HLA (like the maruha kit does)

[greenMachine]

Yes, done that.

I gutted the HLAs and used SUBs, worked well though as I recall it the gutting was a fiddly process.

Fiddlyness aside, was it as simple as yanking out the valving? Or did you have to machine up spacers to go inside the now empty HLA (like the maruha kit does)

Yes.

No spacers, after the gutting it was then a case of measuring for shim size. I reused some, ground some down to size, and had to buy a few. I am pretty sure these were B6 HLAs, they have a central post which sits on the shim, which sits on the valve tip.

[StanTheMan]

I would have thought thats very dodgy.....but what am I to argue when its successfully done....by respectable members of this community.

I'm currently going through this process but I Have 2 sets of HLA lifters from the B6 motor But the BP4W already had the solid lifters and I have to do the shims regardless. I was considering just using the HLA's but decided against it. The cams will most likely toast them in no time.

but converting from HLA to solids.....sounds like an option as long as you don't plan on revving it to pluto via the milky way

[greenMachine]

Stan, my converted HLAs have lived in an 8000rpm engine for a number of years, with no evident ill effects.

What specifically did you think was dodgy?

[plohl]

I've heard of this being done in a few race engines as well. The only downside is it's heavier than a true SUB... but that's going to make no difference 99% of the time.

[StanTheMan]

Stan, my converted HLAs have lived in an 8000rpm engine for a number of years, with no evident ill effects.

What specifically did you think was dodgy?

well it was just my initial thought when opening this thread. Thats all. Don't feel that way now.

in particular with race engines. If Id know about this last year.....I would have probably converted patchys B6 to solids.
But the cam profile is for HLA's....not sure if that makes a huge difference

and 8K rpm.....Id consider that at least to the moon

[StillIC]

I also run my HLAs to 8000 rm regularly, but of the 16 in my engine, I have replaced around 20 of them. Some of them never, some twice.

[StanTheMan]

so whats all this stuff about solid lifters ?

I'm starting to get tempted to just throw in the HLA's on the 1.8.....with big lift cams....

[plohl]

HLAs are a higher risk solution in certain cases. If the car was a weekend warrior with the odd track day, there probably isn't a huge problem.
But if your racing a season and you miss two races one weekend because a hla or two have died, you've lost money in track time, have to dick around at the track, and possibly lost points for the season.
IIRC Manga Blue had a thread with his HLA woes, and in the end went to solids.

[zossy1]

If done properly, gutted HLAs work fine. Multiple engine builders use them. They are 50-55g or so compared to the 30-35g of a Mazdaspeed SUB.

[madjak]

With the converted HLA lifters, isn't the gap too large for a single shim or are the B6 central stem longer or something? From memory there is a good 10mm space once you pull the piston out of the HLA that you need to fill. I suppose you just need really long shims, or one on the lifter and one on the valve.

Once set up I see now issue with using the HLA other than the extra weight.