Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

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omx500
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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:38 pm

speed wrote:Pm a mod and they should be able to help you when they get the time :)

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Cool thanks Steve. I will do that.

No photos today but just wanted to report a very brief drive experience. Since more or less finishing the guts of the new turbo conversion a week ago I have had an infuriating problem which meant that I couldn't build much boost (about 0.3 bar), and my car ran with less power than when supercharged. "Boost leak" I thought, but couldn't hear anything or find anything loose. "Wastegate actuator spring too soft", was the next thought, but a much bigger spring had almost no discernible affect. "Not enough preload on the wastegate" a mate suggested and this time, glancing at my gauge as I tried to load the engine up I did get a little extra boost - now to about 0.4 bar. Now thoroughly confused and wondering if perhaps I had left something in a pipe which was now blocking up the intercooler, I decided to take the wastegate actuator pressure line off to rule out an issue with the wastegate. Back on the street, I did notice slightly more boost again, with 0.5 bar for sure and I thought I might have seen the gauge flicker to 0.6 bar for a split second. Car was starting to misfire under load too. It was only when I went to my datalog to see exactly how much more boost I had attained that I noticed that the recorded MAP did not go up as high as the gauge reading I saw. The ECU map sensor and gauge are on the same line split using a 'y' piece so this seemed odd. Under the dashboard again and I checked the hose which seemed OK, but I replaced it with new silicone anyway. I got my air pump with gauge and tried pumping into the line and watching the ECU MAP value. It went up, then dipped down immediately and no matter what I did, I could not 'pump up' the line suggesting the sensor was leaking. It was a $30 part I bought new off eBay. I had an electrically similar sensor on a Stack boost pressure gauge in my shed, so cut this off and spliced into my car loom appropriately and repeated the test. ECU was now displaying exactly the air pressure showing on my air pump gauge and with no leak in the system, I could pump it up to the limit of the sensor, about 3 bar absolute. I thought it was a bit strange that this issue was occurring on top of my boost issue, but regardless went out to see if the accurate MAP sensor would at least make the car run properly on the limited boost I was getting. Turning onto the road I shifted into second, noting that small throttle inputs resulted in pretty jerky forward motion. I put some revs on to smooth everything out then put my foot down to 90% TP with about 4500rpm on the dial and stuff happened so fast I didn't fully comprehend what was happening until the engine cut out. My little car squatted way back like it was trying to catapult me down the street, then it all got too much for the rear tyres which stepped out in wheel spin. It was a new experience for me in this car. Conscious of the fact that my wastegate was effectively stuck shut I tried it again, to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and it went just the same, a lot of force then an abrupt halt as I hit the boost limit set in my ecu. What a blast....I'm sitting here smiling just thinking about it and certainly you could not wipe the smile off my face for the rest of the day after it happened.

Just goes to show that simple things going wrong with control systems can have unpredictable effects. My MAP sensor has probably been no good since I put it in, but my tune had compensated for it during the brief time I used this ECU with my supercharged setup. My low throttle transients etc are now all wrong so I face the task of road tuning that stuff again. But you just need that one shove in the back when you put your foot down and everything comes together to make the work seem worthwhile. I am looking forward to getting back into the car over the weekend and running up a bit of a tune to get general drive-ability back into the ball park, and maybe putting my foot down once in a while, just for scientific purposes.

Sorry about the long post. The way my memory is going I wanted to record what happened for my own benefit! Have a great weekend all, I certainly intend to. :D

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby datfreak » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:32 am

omx500 wrote: What a blast....I'm sitting here smiling just thinking about it and certainly you could not wipe the smile off my face for the rest of the day after it happened.


Sorry about the long post. The way my memory is going I wanted to record what happened for my own benefit! Have a great weekend all, I certainly intend to. :D



Its been years since ive done big engine mods -but the feeling of the first drive with the big grin is memorable.

After all the work (and $) you have put in, i'm glad you got it sorted. Lucky the MAP sensor showed up now and didn't just give wrong readings (with scary leanouts) in 6 months time.

Are you going to tune it yourself? I've always done roadtunes with a wideband on n/a cars but I'm not so confident in turbos(advance tables, det cans etc). Please post your dyno figures when its finished!

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:34 pm

20170326_192203.jpg


This is how it all looks now. Still a few things to tidy up
1) whatever is going on with the big port coming from the inlet manifold, blue silicone heater hose, a brass fitting, long silicone vacuum hose leading to the under car mounted BOV)
2) I don't like the hose routing to the breather tank, or the tank itself, so a little bit of work to do there
3) A couple of hoses could do with some covers to protect against long term abrasion
4) PS reservoir is blocking 50% of the air inlet path from my indicator air duct to the air cleaner so I need to find somewhere else to mount it
but in general I'm happy with the overall layout.

I have gone for a couple of drives and done a road tune on mixture to about 15psi. I have just guessed the ignition timing from my old setup and some good old extrapolation. I find it basically impossible to do a road tune for timing on E85 as there is nothing to listen to vs combustion noise on petrol. Will take it to a local dyno some time in the next week or two and set up some timing there, as well as optimize fuelling based on power production, rather than just looking for a given AFR at a given load. Something I have noticed is the radically reduced air inlet temperature with this setup, in comparison to my FFS which drew air from the back of the engine bay, near where the clutch reservoir would usually be. On a warm day, the compressed inlet air in the manifold could easily surpass 80 degrees, even with water injection running into the supercharger. Now it barely gets to 30 degrees on any sort of sustained loading I am able to manage without going unacceptably fast on the road. That has to be good for power and reliability.

Even in its current state, the engine is much stronger than when it had the FFS setup. This is particularly noticeable lower in the rev range when it has a lot more torque. It will require some driver retraining. I have settled on a wastegate actuator spring which gives me about 7psi and set up an open loop bleed off of pressure to the actuator based on RPM. This has allowed me to still get 15psi at higher rpm, but I can soften the ramp up of torque through the midrange to try to keep the tyres in their traction zone. When I am a bit more familiar with what works, I will program a closed loop PID boost curve which is also influenced by throttle position and some sort of driver compensation input (for eg rain, 'scramble boost' :D or etc). I am interested to see what sort of dyno numbers come out and even though I am used to being disappointed by dyno results, I am quietly confident that I will have attained my goal of 150-160 rwkw with good boost response. I think more power than I am making now could be found straightforwardly through (another list sorry)
1) better down pipe where wastegate flow is not channelled at right angles across main turbine outlet flow
2) 3" exhaust instead of current 2 1/2"
3) bigger exhaust housing nozzle (current one is 0.49 A/R)
4) more boost

I'm not sure if more power would make the car faster or slower, from point to point. I am very interested to go to my local track to get some genuine data on whether turbo power gets me around faster than supercharger power.

Take care and thanks for your interest.

Omar
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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby NitroDann » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:49 pm

omx500 wrote:Even in its current state, the engine is much stronger than when it had the FFS setup. This is particularly noticeable lower in the rev range when it has a lot more torque.



You can tell 'em once, you can tell 'em a thousand times...

Good going.

Youll make 170+rwkw easily enough.

Dann
http://www.NitroDann.com

speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:31 pm

NitroDann wrote:
omx500 wrote:Even in its current state, the engine is much stronger than when it had the FFS setup. This is particularly noticeable lower in the rev range when it has a lot more torque.



You can tell 'em once, you can tell 'em a thousand times...

Good going.

Youll make 170+rwkw easily enough.

Dann


:) Supercharger was easier to install and get running in comparison to turbo (I did it in my neighbours garage over a few nights after work), but the extra work for a turbo install seems so worth it. Now that there are plenty of parts and knowledge about swapping, piecing together your own setup which actually works has become a reality, even for back-yarders like me with limited (hands on) help available.

I dare not to even dream of lofty 170+ KW. All I do know is that it has quite enough power for the chassis setup and my ability to drive it for the moment. Am currently exploring some bigger rubber options! Car is booked in for a dyno tune at a respected local shop next Wednesday (12/4), just before easter. Will report the results soon after.

:beer: Omar

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:26 pm

Scan0477 (2).pdf



:D
This is enough power for my little car and more than I dreamed it might make! I think it is solid for what my tuner says is a pretty soft tune, at a sustainable boost level. I was pleased with my road tune (blue). Most of the power gain in the upper half of the range was from more timing.

Next on the list, traction and launch control. And maybe a new clutch, and find a spare gearbox....

:beer: Omar
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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby datfreak » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:41 pm

congrats. You must be pleased with those results. For those on mobile devices with no pdf viewer he got 210kw or 200kw on the road tune.
Its hard to see from the graphs but looks like boost spool starts very early?
That car must be a real joy now. Again well done on your mani/turbo choices and its nice to see your work paying off.

Is that the limit of the std rods? Is that exhaust 2.5 or 3 inch?

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby speed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:57 pm

Holy crap, thats awesome! Well done.
So thats 16 psi in a 1.8
Can't recall, is your motor built?

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NA6 turbo - 140kw atw - not the most powerful but so much fun :D

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:00 pm

datfreak wrote:
Is that the limit of the std rods? Is that exhaust 2.5 or 3 inch?


Thanks and yes very happy. I think standard rods would probably still be OK if you avoid too much boost too early. I deliberately limit boost until about 5000rpm, but more for driveabiltly. I have forged rods and pistons. Exhaust is 2 1/2" with no cat and just one straight through muffler. It is not loud at all. Except for the BOV - Turbosmart race port is loud no matter how gently you drive.

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:12 pm

speed wrote:Can't recall, is your motor built?


Thanks Steve. Yep built to some extent. Fully machined block. Forged JE pistons and Eagle rods. Good bearings and ARP main studs. Balanced. Baffled sump. Decent head gasket and ARP studs. Inconel 1mm oversized valves with Supertech springs and retainers. Mazdaspeed SUB conversion and '99 BP cams for solid lifters. Nothing crazy, but built to play all day.

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby speed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:21 pm

I'm impressed. Going to have to pull my finger out re my rebuild :)

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NA6 turbo - 140kw atw - not the most powerful but so much fun :D

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:46 pm

Ran the car at the local track on Saturday. It was like a different car. I had to relearn gearchange points, braking markers and weight transitions coming off throttle in particular. Had one fail trying to overtake an AMG A45 on the hill - got a bit excited flooring it at about 4500rpm in 3rd and just exploded into wheelspin despite now running 225/45s on 15x9s. Got past on the main straight a couple of turns later. With so much more torque I found it best to minimize changes (my gearbox is failing anyway) and concentrate on smooth lines and more controlled transitions from throttle to brake and back again. By the end of the day with melting brake pads I equalled my fastest time on road rubber, but am still about 1.5 seconds slower than my best supercharged time with Yokohama A050s. My data suggests the car can do at least a second faster in current setup if the driver can put all the good bits together. With a bit of suspension tuning and some decent semis I reckon I'll get there. But it is interesting that with so much more power I am not much quicker than my supercharged setup. In a straight line away from a set of lights, turbo power is king. :D
All the best. O

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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Sun May 06, 2018 1:54 pm

20180506_123448.jpg


A tardy follow-up. After doing laps and have (a) the rubber pcv bung in the rocker cover come out and spew oil everywhere and (b) the standard PS reservoir leaking a fine fog of PS fluid every session, I made a few mods to the engine bay. Nitro-Dann to the rescue with a nice catch can which bolts to an existing hole in the firewall along with a mod by me to keep a stainless filter with an AN base on the can and a welded AN fitting on the rocker cover. The PS is currently being tested with an Aeroflow billet reservoir mounted in front of the radiator support panel (you can just see the lid poking through the air guide which sits in front of the radiator support panel. This reservoir is supposed to reduce foaming and has a baffle and seals which should stop leakage whilst still allowing expansion and contraction to take place. It is plumbed in with press lock AN fittings and hose again from Aeroflow. This placement also has the advantage of moving the stock reservoir from next to my headlight so I can get uninterrupted air flow from the air inlet integrated into the front indicator to the air filter. Probably wouldn't make much difference but makes me feel better. If I still get leakage I will try a cooler and/or under drive pulley or maybe depower the rack...
Best regards, O.
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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby omx500 » Sun May 06, 2018 2:16 pm

20180317_101246.jpg


See I really do go and use this! I wore out the 205/50-15 A050 on 15x8 in this photo. Now fitted Nankang AR1 in 225/45-15 on 15x9 and keen to see if these are the performance bargain people say. Motec CDL-3 dash logger feeds data stream to EMS EDL7 dash for instrument display. Under the HVAC panel are 11 position knobs which allow me to adjust launch control maps, traction control maps and boost maps from the driver seat. There is a Motec shift light unit which (shock) is a shift light as well as alerting me to possible engine issues and traction control intervention. Buttons on wheel allow access to functions like turning off the TC/LC to allow burnout before start, page switching on the screens, alarm acknowledge/clear, horn! I have been tinkering away on this car in fits and starts for 10 years now. I still have quite a few things on my list...
O.
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Re: Cast manifold and dump fit WRX turbo to 1.8L MX5

Postby shirtz » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:26 pm

fantastic read, did you make the coolant re-route yourself? ill have one!

I have an NA8 and will use this to guide the way to turbo goodness eventually!


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