Patchy's Fawlty Towers risk management. Enter at own risk

[StanTheMan]

got it sorted. It was a setting I reversed in performance. View dash only.

back to tuning

[bruce]

What's a stock 1.6 make? 100kw at engine/around 70kw at wheels?

[speed]

What's a stock 1.6 make? 100kw at engine/around 70kw at wheels?

Unfortunately not.
Stock 1. 6 makes 85kw at crank and 60/65kw atw.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[StanTheMan]

I had a power run some years ago on the same Dyno
74 RwKw kw with just a cold air intake.

Since that day
I've actually lost 4 kw
With adding
Exsaust
Enlarged intake
CR
Cams
......

[speed]

If you had 85kw to begin with and it measured 74kw atw, isn't that only a 13% loss from the driveline?

Forget the numbers for a sec. I thought you said that it feels like more power now with the work you've done.

Maybe there is something different with the settings of the dyno or the ambiant air temp etc.

Will be interesting to see the increase with the tune on the MS.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[speed]

74hp is 55kw. You sure the original dyno was in kw?

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[Cus]

Good to see the MS is in!

Commencing a brain dump of random information and things I've learned about the MS in the time I've had one.

The (MS3) base map for NA6 is really retarded, spark wise. Having said that, Bartman told me to pull timing out of my ign table because I'd gone overboard, but going from the stock ECU to MS on a basically stock car made it feel really sluggish until I "fiddled" with the spark map in the MS (add timing in random areas, road-tune, rinse, repeat) ..hasn't blown up yet, but that's more good luck than good management.

I'm not qualified in any capacity to make actual tuning recommendations, but the process I followed was basically this:


0000) if you can take it to a shop and have someone tune it, igore everything below. If you want to DIY it, read on!
000) log everything, all the time. look at those logs, even if for no reason other than to train your brain to read them.
00) make sure the TPS is calibrated, prior to calibration mine read from 95% to 200%
0) Make sure the spark when locked to 10deg on the MS is 10deg on the crank, at idle and also as RPM increases. If the spark angle starts changing with RPM, there's an adjustment in the MS to fix it (spark can retard/advance with RPM due to latency in the ignition system) - so do definitely check that, if it's retarding, you're throwing away power.
1) make it idle, setting up CL-Idle is a pain, but totally rewarding when you get it dialed in and the A/C clicks on and the car just ... keeps doing what it was doing.
2) make it drive in low load/rpm conditions (the theory being if the motor is doing less, a really bad tune will do less damage - this is not a fact, but it made me feel better for the first few drives)
3) setup accel-enrichment to be a bit over-the-top, for safety
4) log/ve analyse/save tune/load tune/log cycle a few times
5) once the VE table is getting you to hit AFR targets, setup accel enrichment. this is a not-bad video that explains some of what you need to look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSE3CxaWF-I
6) probably 4) again to fix some of the xtra fuel accel-enrichment put in
7) start playing with spark if you have access to a dyno/knock sensor/det cans or feel brave. (there is a thread on MT.net where lots of people post spark tables, I've tried not to exceed any of those and always run 95 as a minimum)
when you have a tune that's "not bad" save a copy of it somewhere else in case the next tune is a step backwards.
9) have fun!

Check your CLT in the logs, and also check your warmup enrichment settings, if the car isn't getting out of WUE, it'll be really rich, then when it does eventually get out of WUE, it'll go really lean.

[Cus]

Update; I hereby retract my comments about fiddling with the spark map.

I couldn't sleep, so I decided to compare the MSPNP 1990 base map with the MS3 1990 base map. You have an MSPNP, and I have an MS3, and they have wildly different base ignition maps for some reason.
In short, the MS3 base map has a whole bunch less spark up top than the MS2/MSPNP base map, meaning I could safely "fiddle" a lot more.



These are comparisons of the files as they exist on the diyautotune website about 20 minutes ago.

Negative numbers are less spark in the MS3 base map compared to the MS2, positive numbers are more spark.

"MSQ Igniton Map" is from the MS3 base map.
"Alt Ignition Map" is from the MSPNP base map.
"Ignition Comparison" computes the same values the MS would use if it were sitting at the RPM/kPa bins defined in the "MSQ" map, but using the spark values from the "Alt" map. (ignore 700, 7200 & 7500 columns, they don't exist in the MS2 map so can't be compared)

There probably is room to fiddle with the spark (people don't seem to run into detonation on the base maps), but I wouldn't until you've got some kind of real tools (det cans, knock sensor, dyno, etc)

[StanTheMan]

If you had 85kw to begin with and it measured 74kw atw, isn't that only a 13% loss from the driveline?

Forget the numbers for a sec. I thought you said that it feels like more power now with the work you've done.

Maybe there is something different with the settings of the dyno or the ambiant air temp etc.

Will be interesting to see the increase with the tune on the MS.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

Standard NA6 has between 60 & 65 RwKw . About 25% driveline loss

Mine had 64.2 RwKw stock standard. That was like in 2001.....LOL

Some time later it was dynoed with 74rwkw so that's a 10 kilowatt increase at the wheels.

Then in 2009 cams, adaptronic, open air intake exsaust, got to 106rwkw
In 2010 adaptronic came out. It drove with standard ECU Estimate is 95 RwKw

This week was essentially the same set up. I was expecting somewhere close to 95 RwKw . Even if the estimate of 95 is high 90 would not have been an unrealistic

Could be that the engine is tired. Some of it is the high AFR .....time will tell.

Yes and there is like 16 years between Dyno runs......so take that into consideration as well. There is like 10 years difference on the same Dyno . It's not like 5 minutes between runs on the same day

[StanTheMan]

Cus...
Yea keep it coming

Yes I'm kinda looking a lot at target AFR and actual AFR as well as the VE value.
I haven't touched the acceleration wizard just yet .
I figured 1 thing at a time.

Idle is pretty stable I guess I just need to figure out where I want it.
At 900 it's deep & throaty running a bit rich about mid to high 13s (very stable)
At 1000 it runs easy at around 14.5
I'm not getting any lumpyness dammit!!!!!
I wonder if the cams are actually the stock cams?......now that would be embarrecing or not the advertised specs.

Odd thing in the timing advance you can see it on the table as well.
There is this 17.1
Then there is this 18.2? Wtf?

I think I changed that but I fell into the trap of changing too many things at once yesterday and will probably revert to the previous map

I will get some shots up I've actually gone to 7500 in spark , AFR & Ve

I've also upgraded to Tuner Studios mega extra Ultra you beauty software. Makes easy work of those painful monotenous things.

[StanTheMan]

well when I put the MS2 in it felt quite perky in comparison.

probably because it had so much fuel going in as well as the timing table is somewhat more agressive than the stock one is....or at least it seems that way.

yesterday & today I had the auto-tune going. but yesterday i also ran some logging at the same time. I didn't today.

Currently I have the idle locked & I had most of the 2300-3100 locked.
I ran the autotune in to the wau to work & locked the rest this morning.

I'll run do some more data logging on the way home tonight & check them & may change some. well see what it tells me.

Screenshot 2017-02-08 08.54.18.png

currently its still getting very lean when off he throttle decelerating. seeing numbers like 20:1 occasionally for very short periods. It seems to strat bubbling or over run from 17: or over
While cruising & accelerating in traffic I'm getting high 11's not low 10 anymore. this is all below 5000 rpm.
Once I'm comfortable with the table below 5000 I'll find a flat piece of road & get the RPM's up and do some logging & changing numbers. Then do some more auto tuning.
I'm curious about how far I can take the timing. Ive not noticed any pinging. But I'm going deaf. hearing loss is not a good thing when tuning.

[speed]

You had 106kw. Dam, that must have gone well.

IIRC you've done porting and compression since.
You still using those same cams?

Cus has made me want to check my accell enrichment.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[StanTheMan]

cams are slightly different.


current ones are
272/264 10/9 mm lift, adaptronic ECU, AFM removed

the old ones were 272 with 8.9mm lift

all in all. the new ones seem a lot less agressive from what I recall. Could also be my tuning the timing on the cams.

for this power run on monday I used the OEM ECU. same exhaust & enlarged intake as in 2009. even the same Dyno but 8 years apart.

I cant adjust anything on the OEM ECU it is what it is.

The mega squirt is in. I'm having a go at tuning it.

I'm currently still running the AFM as well, which once taken out, should reap some benefits.

I thought I had a variable TPS not sure what happened there. It turns out Its not. Unless I still have the variable one sitting around at home somewhere.

I also still need to get a temperature sensor that I want to install just before the intake. Currently the one in the AFM is being used That's why I kept the AFM for now.
I do still have a temperature sensor which I can install right on the CAI.... I just have to calibrate the sensor itself. I have no idea what car it is from.

AFR is only part of it. Could be that the engine is just tired. maybe the old valve spring are too soft. Rings are worn out. I'm not going back in now to change it. It is what it is. I'll drive it until she blows. Then its turbo 1.8 time. this isn't something that can go below the radar at home. If & when she blows there will at least be an excuse.
It would be nice to have 1 x turbo & 1x N/A. Although Patchy is no dyno queen I love driving her. I love the drama. Happy as she goes.

[StanTheMan]

You had 106kw. Dam, that must have gone well.

IIRC you've done porting and compression since.
You still using those same cams?

Cus has made me want to check my accell enrichment.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

Yes indeed.
with the adaptronic at WOT she was pretty hectic. Loud as ƒü¢k.Reciting poetry on the engine & having ACDC from the intake all at the same time. but Ive had hearing loss in my old age......
But she was a bitch to drive in traffic. No joy at all. in hindsight it all went in without much thought and much research. It cam,e up I bought it & installed it as it came off another car.
With the megasquirt right from start the drivability is fine in traffic. Id much rather have drive avility than top Hp.good chance i'll end up going to a pro. we'll see what happens. how driveaility is in a few months.Once I think I have a good table and understanding of all thigns involved

[Cus]

currently its still getting very lean when off he throttle decelerating. seeing numbers like 20:1 occasionally for very short periods. It seems to strat bubbling or over run from 17: or over

If you're taking throttle out and causing the engine to decelerate, it will go lean, but that's OK, as long as you're not going lean when you're accelerating! Fully taking your foot off the loud pedal should peg you at 20:1 or whatever "full lean" is on your WB02 until the engine gets to just above idle, then it will start putting fuel in to make it idle - but the MS will be cutting fuel on deceleration, this is normal so don't try and tune it out, you'll go insane ;)

While cruising & accelerating in traffic I'm getting high 11's not low 10 anymore. this is all below 5000 rpm.

for best emissions you'll want to be hitting 14.7 in steady-state cursing, leaner than that for economy, these will be in the 30 - 80kPa rows of the tables. You want the WOT/100kPa rows to be up around 11 to 13, no richer than 11 though, you start getting into too much fuel and it'll upset the power output. I think I'm targeting 12:1 for WOT, and 15.5 for the highway cruise, and 14.7 everywhere else.

I'm curious about how far I can take the timing. Ive not noticed any pinging. But I'm going deaf. hearing loss is not a good thing when tuning.

My understanding is on a stock B6 engine you'll generally stop making power before you run into knock, but the only real way to test that is with a dyno. You can also have mild knock that's almost inaudible while you're in the car, that'll still do bad things, if you can hear it knocking while you're driving the car, you're definitely about to break something haha

all in all. the new ones seem a lot less agressive from what I recall. Could also be my tuning the timing on the cams.

If you log a WOT pull, does the kPa / manifold pressure decrease as the RPMs increase? It could simply be the na6 flapper AFM being too much of a restriction on the intake, causing all the extra lift to go to waste. I just pulled off my you-beaut DIY (read: dodgy as f*ck) cold air intake for this exact reason. I'm now at the point of having to re-do all of my VE tables because the engine is getting better airflow in just about every situation.

This is how I have my MLV laid out.
The top graph is Vehicle Speed/RPM/MAP/TPS,
The second one is AFR, AFR target, AFR error, and Duty Cycle.
The third one is MAT + CLT + Baro. The other item and everything in graph 4 change depending on how I feel, or what I'm looking at.


This also shows the drop in kPa as RPM increases - barometer is at 96.9kPa, but the intake pressure is only 92.5 @ 6k, So I was literally leaving 3-4% of my air on the table.

I do still have a temperature sensor which I can install right on the CAI.... I just have to calibrate the sensor itself. I have no idea what car it is from.

If the IAT sensor is a GM one, there are calibration figures on the DIY Autotune website. You also want it closer to the throttle body, otherwise you'll be lying to the MS about the actual temp of the air once it's been through all of the intake tubing and warmed up a bit.