Engineering Turbochargers in Victoria Discussion

[NitroDann]

Im going to be blunt and to the point.

I do not believe for a second that engineering cars in Victoria is any different to any other state, however Ive not been given the opportunity to try.

All of my research, all of the legislation I've read, and my nationally accredited local engineer all lead me to believe that the engineering (complying) process in Victoria is identical to NSW.

I've opened this thread for people to prove or disprove this statement.

Please provide any information that you can. Please do not post anecdotes or speculation as it is in my opinion the cause of this misunderstanding which has caused dozens if not hundreds of Victorian MX5 owners to give up on dreams of fast MX5s.

Dann

[bruce]

I have done it, so here are the facts;
There is a list of approved VicRoads engineers in Victoria. Not many in the Melbourne area. Many of the engineers don't approve cars (they specialise in buses, etc). You ring them and ask if they're willing to even look at your project/car. This reduces the numbers down even further. His time is expensive, so if he doesn't like what you're saying ie. LS into an MX5, he will decline. I found only two engineers willing to even look at my car.
You visit them and they look and tell you what to do. You make changes which costs $. He could tell you to change everyhing before he OKs it. It is a slow process as you are generally not the main focus of their business (they've got bigger, more important customers).
Usually an Emissions test is required. $800. Technically only one run on the rolling road is allowed, resulting in a Pass or Fail. Fail and you need to revisit with another $800. Only one place in Melb is approved to do it - and only one man does the test. I believe this is the most difficult part of the whole process. Lots of technical rules apply and gets very complicated. I can tell you, E85 will not guarantee you a pass. (This is easy in NSW as I think the test either cheap, or easy to pass? Qld is even easier as it looks like Mod Plates are handed out cheaply willy-nilly).
My engineer charged me about $1100. Price depends upon how much writing he needs to do, but I think the minimum would be $800. You get a piece of paper listing the mods which you give to VicRoads at registration. A recent thing; the engineer puts a little blue sticker on the firewall, listing the car details and mods. Looks like a Qld Mod plate, but paper.

In summary;
-It's difficult to find an engineer who will approve it or even talk to you
-It is costly; what the engineer charges, the changes he requests, and Emissions testing.
-I recommend to find an engineer who is happy to OK your mods, BEFORE (yes, do your research) you do it.

[NitroDann]

Ok, sounds good, Ill explain my process in NSW.


-Firstly, I pay the engineer to sit down and talk to me about my goals and plans to achieve them.
-The engineer then tells me which boundaries not to cross and exactly which ADR's I need to comply with.
-I then build a car within these guidelines.
-I then have the car brake tested on a platronic tester and weighed.
-I then tune the car to pass emissions, and go and pass the test.
-I then have the engineer do the noise test and perform his visual inspection.
-Obviously I pay each workshop/certification process along the way.


My notes: ADR requirements for emissions, noise, brake test results etc etc are identical country wide. In NSW there are a few places which can do the emissions test, for that I pay $350. I have a 100% first try pass rate for emissions tests. I have a 100% first try pass results for the engineers inspection and sound tests.

The key, in my opinion, is building a car the engineer wants to pass based on his advice, and understanding what is actually needed to pass sound and emissions requirements.


So basically, according to Bruce:

- you call an engineer
- you build a car which falls within his interpretation of the ADRs
- you go and pass the tests required by the ADRs
- you pay for those tests
- and you pay the engineer to write the certificate giving his ok
- then you inform the VicRoads.

Absolutely all of this is identical to NSW, and again there is no challenge in building a car within these requirements. Many people build a shitty illegal car and then go see an engineer AFTER being red labelled and are told to redo half of their car. I have never had this issue.

Also, the easiest way for me to engineer a vicroads car would simply be for me to have my engineer OK it all and have all the tests done, and have your local guy simply check his work, sign off on it and then you are legal.

Dann

Please post any more info anyone has

[NitroDann]

I have done it, so here are the facts;
There is a list of approved VicRoads engineers in Victoria.

As per NSW

Not many in the Melbourne area.

As per Sydney

Many of the engineers don't approve cars (they specialise in buses, etc).

As per NSW

You ring them and ask if they're willing to even look at your project/car.

As per NSW

This reduces the numbers down even further. His time is expensive, so if he doesn't like what you're saying ie. LS into an MX5, he will decline.

This is not within the law in any state


You visit them and they look and tell you what to do. You make changes which costs $.

As per NSW, changes are only made if you ALREADY built the car without consulting an engineer or reading the relevant ADRs

He could tell you to change everyhing before he OKs it. It is a slow process as you are generally not the main focus of their business (they've got bigger, more important customers).

Again, thats the same here and is why I consult before building.

Usually an Emissions test is required.

As per NSW

$800. Technically only one run on the rolling road is allowed, resulting in a Pass or Fail. Fail and you need to revisit with another $800. Only one place in Melb is approved to do it - and only one man does the test.

I wonder if this is true, many people say the same about Botany in NSW but it simply isnt true, usually your engineer will say "only one place is allowed to" but what he means is, "Im only comfortable passing your car if its being approved by this one place". These arent the same thing, though they might as well be if you have the choice of only one engineer.

I believe this is the most difficult part of the whole process. Lots of technical rules apply and gets very complicated. I can tell you, E85 will not guarantee you a pass.

This is the opinion of most people, what I did was speak to the emissions test facility directly and ask for advice, which I followed and again, Ive got a 100% pass rate, most recently on a late model MX5, running only 98, without even having an oxygen sensor for closed loop. So basically it passed 'oldschool racecar style', and infact would have passed 2016 requirements. Again the myths surrounding this come from a lack of experience IMO

(This is easy in NSW as I think the test either cheap, or easy to pass? Qld is even easier as it looks like Mod Plates are handed out cheaply willy-nilly).

Difficulty is identical for all states, but yes it is cheaper here by the sounds of it.

My engineer charged me about $1100. Price depends upon how much writing he needs to do, but I think the minimum would be $800. You get a piece of paper listing the mods which you give to VicRoads at registration. A recent thing; the engineer puts a little blue sticker on the firewall, listing the car details and mods. Looks like a Qld Mod plate, but paper.

Sounds right to me.

In summary;
-It's difficult to find an engineer who will approve it or even talk to you

To some extent I agree

-It is costly; what the engineer charges, the changes he requests, and Emissions testing.

this is relative but for many it will be cost prohibitive.

-I recommend to find an engineer who is happy to OK your mods, BEFORE (yes, do your research) you do it.

And this everyone is the answer we have all been looking for




Thankyou so much bruce.

[bruce]

Only one approved emissions tester in wider Melbourne. Unlikely anyone else due to equipment required. No mention anywhere of a second place.

I also had to get my car weighed and engineer did brake and noise checks.

I guess people don't have the time to get all the testing done, nor the minimum $2000 just to get started.

[NitroDann]

I see the myth thats its not even possible posted so often and I hear it from my own customers all of the time.

For comparison for NSW here, I charge 2500 flat fee on top of an NA/NB turbo conversion to hand it back to the customer fully certified, this covers every fee/test/inspection and is drive in drive out.

In vic I can see another 1000 on top of this due to higher emissions testing costs and not having a dedicated workshop with experience in achieving this result.

Thankyou so much for this information and your time Bruce.

Dann

[madjak]

NitroDann - this is a little outside the Vic discussion but though I could add the info for WA guys. I can move it elsewhere if you want. It's basically the same process anyway.

In WA there is a fairly new process (last 2-3 years or so), I haven't done this but I know a couple of the DoT inspectors so I have a good understanding of what is involved.

You need to fill in a 'modification of light vehicle' application form and submit it to DoT. In that form you note all your modifications. They assess it and tell you which mods you need to get it engineered. If you are adding a turbo it's going to need full engineering.

Then you make the changes, and get one of the engineers on the list to sign off on the modifications to say they meet the ADR requirements and match the modification list. Anything that doesn't fit the check boxes needs a full report. Some engineers will be more flexible than others so you need to research the most appropriate engineer for the mods. They will charge different rates too so ask for a quote upfront. The various tests are set as a requirement only if the modification affects it (eg Emissions, stability, braking etc). Each application is treated individually and run past a DoT inspector who has the end say.

It's probably best to talk to one of the engineers prior to submitting the modification form so you know what will be involved and if they are happy with the mods. What you put on the form will dictate the level of work for the engineer and costs but in the end it is the responsibility of the person submitting the mod form to include everything. The engineer will sign off each mod so if you don't include something or modify it afterwards and it causes an accident then you are liable regardless of DoT / engineering approval.

I'm not sure on the costs... but I understand that if you fall into some generic categories (eg bolt on parts like suspension change, roll bars) it can be fairly easy. Costs go up quickly when there is something custom (eg turbo kit).

[93_Clubman]

Bruce's Victorian example is consistent with the following from EPA Victoria, which is why he got a VASS certificate & it is legally registered by Vicroads, ie Bruce's car had a Nissan SR20DET driveline & engine management installed into it.

EPA Victoria Modified Vehicle Guidelines 2006 as amended July 2016:
'An emission-controlled engine may be turbocharged or supercharged only if:
the conversion is unconditionally endorsed in writing by the vehicle manufacturer as being ADR compliant
or
the type conversion has ADR certification
or
the converted vehicle is in all respects identical to the production turbocharged/supercharged vehicle.
Fitment must not interfere with the effective operation of any other emission control system or device, including the evaporative emission system.'
See p4 para 4 Turbo/SC: http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/our-work/publ ... uly/1031-4

'Non-original electronic chips or computers, whether fitted as a direct replacement or in a ‘piggy-back’ configuration, are not permitted to be used in an engine management system unless it can be demonstrated that their installation and use allows the vehicle to meet the appropriate ADR. They must also be sealed or otherwise constructed so as not to be reprogrammable.'
See p5 para 7 EMS: http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/our-work/publ ... uly/1031-4

Believe Bruce's example is also consistent with Vicroads VSI:
No. 8 Guide to modifications for motor vehicles October 2011
No. 26 Roadworthiness requirements December 2012
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety- ... nformation

[NickFit]

Thank you for posting about this topic.

This cleared up a lot of fogginess for me, but it also reaffirmed one thing... Doing it properly costs a lot more than you think/budget for.

[Cus]

I did the legwork for this earlier in the year, and am very, very slowly getting around to making it happen, but as mentioned here, it's not cheap and planning ahead is worth it's weight in gold. Dann, you will eventually get to engineer a turbo in Vic! I promise!

It is not impossible, it's not even hard, but it costs more than a used $1000 turbo+intercooler+manifold from a facebook Buy/Swap/Sell page, and that's where a lot of people come undone - they have $1000, but they don't have the other $2000-4000 to make sure the job is done properly. (ECU, Injectors, Tuning, Engineering, the other little things you find out about when your budget is already running into "angry missus" territory)

The emissions test is exactly the IM240, the same as every other state, and as of march this year it was $550, you just have to hit the ADR emissions target for your year/model (ADR37/00 for my NA6) (Source: email from the guy at ViPac, who is the only guy who does the testing in Vic)

The "curly" part everyone gets hung up on is this single sentence in the EPA R&Rs:

'Non-original electronic chips or computers, whether fitted as a direct replacement or in a ‘piggy-back’ configuration, are not permitted to be used in an engine management system unless it can be demonstrated that their installation and use allows the vehicle to meet the appropriate ADR. They must also be sealed or otherwise constructed so as not to be reprogrammable.'

Does an aftermarket, normally-programmable ECU without a USB header count as non-programmable? I'll find out eventually. (Failing that, there was a guy on youtube repinned a DSM (mitsubishi?) ECU and ran that on his boosted MX5) But the EPA regulations don't mean squat as far as getting the car engineered goes - once again, direct from the horses mouth - the emission tester, can and does, pass aftermarket ECUs, as long as the tune on said ECU is up to scratch.

The important thing to remember is "VicRoads Legal" and "EPA Legal" are not the same thing. Being VicRoads legal is the usual amount of legal you need.

You need to be "EPA Legal" in extraneous circumstances (ie; dobbed in, nabbed at a noise station or irritating the boys in blue) I'm sure the same rules apply in NSW and QLD too, but are just more heavily enforced in VIC... but if you leave the car as engineered, I doubt it'll actually be a problem.

[runningman8]

Really good information. I've been down the defect path in Vic for other cars and its the sole reason why I haven't put a turbo on my Mx5 yet. Its not a fun game to play.

If Dan came up with an easy path for getting his work engineered in Vic then i'm sure numerous Mx5's would be heading to Newcastle (mine included)

Following with interest

[NitroDann]

Someone email or PM me the approved engineers list for Vic pls.

[NitroDann]

"Victorian guidelines"

Because this is simplified guidelines, rather than the actual ADRs none of that really means anything. Its just one public servants interpretation of those ADR's quickly jotted down for public reference.

The legislation, the ADR's and their requirements are identical state to state. The mechanical standards the car must comply with are not listed on that document, that document as clearly stated is a guideline. The legislation is identical state to state so far as I am aware which means that all of that is garbage and as we are discovering, the engineering process for Vic is identical to NSW.


Regarding programable ECU's, yes there does need to be an anti tamper device in place, whether thats a password or an ecu sealed under security lock bolts is up to you, and ultimately, the engineers comfort level with your chosen method of anti tamper device.

Dann

[93_Clubman]

The emissions test is exactly the IM240, the same as every other state, and as of march this year it was $550, you just have to hit the ADR emissions target for your year/model (ADR37/00 for my NA6).

But the EPA regulations don't mean squat as far as getting the car engineered goes - once again, direct from the horses mouth - the emission tester, can and does, pass aftermarket ECUs, as long as the tune on said ECU is up to scratch.

The important thing to remember is "VicRoads Legal" and "EPA Legal" are not the same thing. Being VicRoads legal is the usual amount of legal you need.

You need to be "EPA Legal" in extraneous circumstances (ie; dobbed in, nabbed at a noise station or irritating the boys in blue) I'm sure the same rules apply in NSW and QLD too, but are just more heavily enforced in VIC... but if you leave the car as engineered, I doubt it'll actually be a problem.

Well put, & genuinely the best of luck to you. Yeah, some of the ICVs Vipac test run aftermarket ECUs. I found Vipac incredibly helpful a few years ago, & I know they presented & Q&A'd at a Victorian Clubman Builders Group meeting last year.
In terms of the IM240 test, & in the context of running a B6, BP or 4AGE motor, if you've done your research & set everything on car up properly, it's doable.
But as you note above, depending on the setup concerned there may still be an issue with EPA Vic.

[93_Clubman]

Someone email or PM me the approved engineers list for Vic pls.

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media ... docx?la=en