2016 Australian Supersprint Championships ENTRIES OPEN

[Dan]

How would they solve that problem?

If they allowed more mods on different cars that becomes a nightmare to balance.

It's not a secret that as a racecar the MX5 is budget orientated and is inferior to many other cars in terms of performance on the track.

An equally skilled driver in a similarly modded Lotus or Porsche should always beat you and that's just reality. Once you accept that fact beating or being closer than you should be can become fun and if you are further back than you should be it's an opportunity for improvement.

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[greenMachine]

Personally I think just running CAMS classes is too restrictive and will reduce competitor numbers. There are far [u] too many classes [/u]with not enough catering for modified vehicles. It benefits thoroughbred race cars and discourges any new ideas and inovation as well as newcomers.

I think [u]classing should be reduced and simplified [/u] so that you get more competitors per class rather than the reverse. I believe CAMS is current looking at setting up new National classings with this in mind. Hopefully they'll get it right.

Riiiiight. For the last two years the CAMS-based class structure of the NSW Supersprint Championships has been oversubscribed, last year at 200 registrants, this year 230. This series runs 7 'types', each of four capacity classes (includes one class for clubbies, open wheelers, Radical type cars etc). That is six 'classes for 'production type' cars, one of which is the stock class, with four sub-classes based on engine capacity. So, five (or 20, depending on how you want to count it) classes for modified cars. How many more is enough?

You are conscious of the contradictions in your post, I presume? I am not sure what you actually want changed, but I am happy for a rejigging of the CAMS classes if that is what the people in power decide, after listening to competitors. Just remember that changing the rules can make a car uncompetitive in a class, ineligible in a class, and/or require some (much?) expense in getting competitive under the new structure.

The other problem with classes is they often reward the person with the biggest budget.
Often, things permitted in a class such as custom/built motors, aftermarket gearboxes and computers etc, are very costly and require specialists to supply/install/setup.

Meanwhile, things that the average Joe CAN do at home, are not permitted... or if they are permitted, put the car straight into a very high class.

With the greatest of respect Beavis, that is fantasy. If the car can be worked on, the person with the biggest budget is ALWAYS going to have an advantage, maybe not a decisive advantage, but always an advantage. The only way around this is to have time-based classes (a la MX5 Cup), it works there because it is W2W not sprints, but even there it can be gamed.

There are two ways of approaching your motorsport - pick a class and build to it, or build the car and find a class it can run in. If you really want the tin cup, the former is the way to go (IMHO), otherwise go the latter route, do the modifications you want, have fun, and be happy with whatever results you can get.

To look at it from the other side, maybe the mods you can do in your garage I don't have the skills to do myself and it would be unfair to me letting you do them.

The benefit of classes is you can stay away from people with the big budgets if you want to and you need to choose a class to compete in which suits your budget.

There are a bunch of things I wanted to do last year in 2B I couldn't do because of the regs (brakes, carbon hardtop, wing, diff etc..) and it sucks but they need to draw a line somewhere.

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I do get what you are saying but then an mx5 gets hosed is std type classes by things that are faster off the showroom floor.

Again, it is all about budget. We are always going to have problems with the MX5, if it is not R Type Integras, it is S2000s or Loti. Not much we can do about that. I got my 2B cup when the Integras were looking the other way, but now in Type 4 the Lotus is going to punish us (again ). Some of you will remember Rex in the Lotus, who dominated 1B and 2B for a number of years, we just had to wear it and fight over who came second.

TL;DR - it's complicated

[greenMachine]

I don't know if this will help focus the discussion, but it might help non-NSW people who are unfamiliar with the NSW Supersprint regs (copied from the Supersprints website)

Type 1 Unmodified Production Cars that are Road Registered (excluding Four Wheel Drive Turbos, Clubmans, Kit Cars, Replicas and Exotics), where the only freedoms relate to safety, engine reconditioning, tyres and some cosmetic items.

Type 2 Modified Production Cars that are Road Registered (excluding Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas), allowing originally available options and limited modifications to engines, suspension and tyres.

Type 3 Competition vehicles based on Group 3J - Improved Production Cars rules as defined in the CAMS Manual. Minor additional freedoms are allowed to recognise that there will be some road-registered vehicles competing, that cannot meet full 3J rules.

Type 4 Competition vehicles based on Group 3D - Sports Sedan rules as defined in the CAMS Manual. In addition, any vehicle that conforms to Type 1, 2, 3 or SV requirements, apart from Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas, shall be permitted to employ or use Race Tyres but if it does so it shall be classified as a Type 4 vehicle.

Type 5 Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas (whether Road Registered or not) using Race Tyres, Racing Cars, Sports Racing Cars and Sports Racers or as classified by the NSW Supersprint Panel.

Type 6 Highly modified mass produced vehicles commonly known as “Time Attack” vehicles that are modified specifically for the performance of fast lap times and not for racing.

Capacity classes are up to 1600, 1600-2l, 2l-4l, and +4l (Type 4 6l limit), formula cars have their own limits, and time attack I haven't a clue!

[madjak]

Whilst in the Supersprints thread, I was more commenting on events I've seen, which may well be very different to over east. Over here in the west we don't have many CAMS logged booked cars so when we had the National Hillclimb Championships the classing was ridiculous! There were some 25 CAMS classes and another 18 local classes, all for only 60 competitors. Not many of the classes met the 3 minimum so we had the ludicrous situation where competitors that traveled all the way across the country couldn't officially win in their class because there weren't enough cars. This situation is due to the miss-match between CAMS classing and local state based classing.

And when I refer to modified vehicles, I'm referring more to vehicles that are running different engines, aftermarket F/I that puts them outside most CAMS classing. Anyone rocking up in a turbo MX5 gets slapped in with full race cars. I haven't seen the "type" classes your referring to... maybe that's similar to what I'm actually arguing for.

CAMS is currently assessing the national level classing structure for events. I believe there is a report due out soon and will be open for comment. I have heard that it will be focused on unifying and opening / combining existing CAMS classes so that there are more entrants per class for national events and no log booking required for certain classes. As you point out this will be a bit of a minefield for CAMS but I think an event with 100 competitors would be better with 15 classes than the 25+ we see now.

I'm a believer in classing that encourages newcomers to motorsport rather than protecting the old set classes.... Besides an MX5, Lotus, Honda will all be thrashed in 2B by clubman style cars like the Birkin S3. We have a few over here in both 2F and 2B so I'm pretty much screwed!

[madjak]

I don't know if this will help focus the discussion, but it might help non-NSW people who are unfamiliar with the NSW Supersprint regs (copied from the Supersprints website)

Type 1 Unmodified Production Cars that are Road Registered (excluding Four Wheel Drive Turbos, Clubmans, Kit Cars, Replicas and Exotics), where the only freedoms relate to safety, engine reconditioning, tyres and some cosmetic items.

Type 2 Modified Production Cars that are Road Registered (excluding Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas), allowing originally available options and limited modifications to engines, suspension and tyres.

Type 3 Competition vehicles based on Group 3J - Improved Production Cars rules as defined in the CAMS Manual. Minor additional freedoms are allowed to recognise that there will be some road-registered vehicles competing, that cannot meet full 3J rules.

Type 4 Competition vehicles based on Group 3D - Sports Sedan rules as defined in the CAMS Manual. In addition, any vehicle that conforms to Type 1, 2, 3 or SV requirements, apart from Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas, shall be permitted to employ or use Race Tyres but if it does so it shall be classified as a Type 4 vehicle.

Type 5 Clubmans, Kit Cars and Replicas (whether Road Registered or not) using Race Tyres, Racing Cars, Sports Racing Cars and Sports Racers or as classified by the NSW Supersprint Panel.

Type 6 Highly modified mass produced vehicles commonly known as “Time Attack” vehicles that are modified specifically for the performance of fast lap times and not for racing.

Capacity classes are up to 1600, 1600-2l, 2l-4l, and +4l (Type 4 6l limit), formula cars have their own limits, and time attack I haven't a clue!

That pretty much sums up the classes I'm arguing for in our state series for next year.

1o) 1c) Outright (open cockpit / closed cockpit) - no interiors, slicks, full aero
2) Clubman Cars, kit cars
3) Historics
4) Modified production - after market F/I, Engine swaps of same cc, some aero, aftermarket ECU, R Comps)
5) Improved production - Built Engines, full interior, minor aero, after market brakes / intakes exhausts, R Comps)
6) Road registered - Tyres and brake pads

[greenMachine]

Madjak, I see what you mean. I also now recall your comments in the discussion about classes from last year.

Going back to Beavis' comments, and my response, I overlooked one other way of dealing with this issue. That is, the success penalty. I don't know too much about this one, but I gather that a race winner might have to carry an additional weight designed to slow the car down. This does not address your points about what is, and is not, permitted within the class structures, but it would presumably have the effect of stopping the domination of one car/driver, regardless of whether that was "powered by money", the result of clever but not necessarily super expensive engineering, or just driving talent.

[Dan]

People also want to do PB's at these events. A weight penalty would leave the question of how much faster they'd be without the weight.

Personally I wouldn't feel proud about beating the lotus that beats me at every round because of a penalty applied to him for having a lotus and being a good steerer, I'd rather see them either change the classes or I'll continue to chase him around and enjoy the events

I think the way Evo Nats is regulated is a good model. They allocate points for different mods (dump pipe, cat back, tune, tyres, turbo etc..) and also having different points penalties for different versions of the Evo. They add the points up to put people into different classes like 'semi mod', ' highly modified' etc..

Probably wouldn't work for multiple makes but for a single make like MX5's it could probably work and improve the depth of the class as different versions of the MX5 can compete against each other.

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[lightyear]

Points system makes sense. If you have for example a front spoiler and it puts you in some open class, and the car has a stock motor, it does seem dumb. In America they have a point system. This could be copy and pasted and tried out. BTW, I have entered. No idea what class I will be in. If it was based on money spent, I would be in a low class. But I enjoy the challenge of being put in a higher class. I would like to be in the full sick, or hectic road class. My guess is low 1:30's. 1:33, maybe a 32? No idea on how much faster the track is now.

[zossy1]

Well here we are in Winton.

An a$$load of classes. I bust my gut to get down here with kids and wife (and car) in tow, only to find I'm in a class of... you guessed it... one car (mine).

On the up side, the track is great. The new surface is unreal.

[greenMachine]

Well, one lap should do it - unless you need the testing, or the experience of that track, save the car for next time! Hang on, what am I saying ...

I look forward to hearing all about it - are you planning on running at Rd2 (I haven't heard from you about garages ... )?



PS Out of interest, what class?

PPS New surface?! Benalla Auto Club are splashing the money around, with the Wakefield work as well ...

[david_syd_au]

Many of us will get to try the new surface at the MX-5 Club of NSW track day at Winton in November. Should be fun!
Good luck this weekend Chris

[zossy1]

Well, one lap should do it - unless you need the testing, or the experience of that track, save the car for next time! Hang on, what am I saying ...

I look forward to hearing all about it - are you planning on running at Rd2 (I haven't heard from you about garages ... )?



PS Out of interest, what class?

PPS New surface?! Benalla Auto Club are splashing the money around, with the Wakefield work as well ...

Yes! Will be there for Round 2 - and I totally forgot about a garage. Still have space for little old me?

The class is "D2" (which is in effect 2B Marque Sports 1600-2000cc).

[StillIC]

Oh no. Another instance of a class with one entrant. I am going to pose my solution again...budget/price based classes. And here's how to do it:

- Run budget/price classes in parallel to existing classes.That is, you can choose to enter 2 classes if you wish, or just one.
- Use the rules that are used in Folk Racing to police the budgets (allows competitors to buy your car at the class budget price after an event).
- Eliminate the old class structures whenever there are zero (or only one?) competitors at 'n' events in a row, in any given old class.

This will ensure that all existing cars will remain eligible. It will come close to ensuring that cars remain competitive in the new classes, and if not, the popular old classes will remain. If you are in it just for fun and not for trophies, enter your car in a budget/price class that ensures no one will buy it for the budgeted price, or that you will make a tidy profit if they do!

I can't see any down sides other than expensive cars that might be class winners in existing slower categories (e.g. NSW 1A Lotus Elise), but are not are not very fast against other expensive cars in faster categories, might be left out in the cold. But those owners can afford to drive something else.

[Dan]

I can't see any down sides other than expensive cars that might be class winners in existing slower categories (e.g. NSW 1A Lotus Elise), but are not are not very fast against other expensive cars in faster categories, might be left out in the cold. But those owners can afford to drive something else.

Here's 4 that I can think of:
1. Older cars become more competitive, for example there are people like me that want to drive a more modern MX5 that costs double the money and is faster but not that much faster than the old model that it should be in a way higher category.
2. Some people who don't want to or can't spin their own spanners get penalised even though their cars are equivalent to someone who does there own work.
3. My car has thousands spent on it for safety equipment, under your proposed system people would have an incentive to compromise on their safety to be more competitive.
4. People who use good quality parts rather than DIY or copies get penalised, function should be more important than cost.

IMO the focus should be on getting parity between the cars capabilities not how much is spent which is why I think refined categories or a points systems is the way to go.

Good luck to everyone out there at Winton too, looking forward to seeing the times

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[greenMachine]

Yes! Will be there for Round 2 - and I totally forgot about a garage. Still have space for little old me?

I'll put you on the list. Suffice it to say the garages situation is different this year, somewhat more ... fluid, shall we say. Watch your emails, I don't know if you are on the list but if not I will put you on.

Oh no. Another instance of a class with one entrant. I am going to pose my solution again...budget/price based classes. And here's how to do it: ....

Remember we are talking about, in this case, a National level event. Posting 'solutions' on the interwebs is not going to achieve anything by itself.

The conversation has to start at the State level. If you want a totally different class structure, you will need to get one State to adopt it, and then convince the others (IMHO).

I am all for harmonisation. I think it would be easier to harmonise based on the current technically based regulations, but I recognise that the alternative is possible - I just think that the politics are too difficult. However you can always approach the Club officials and CAMS delegate(s) and put it too them.

A start might be to get the results sheets from this year and last year, and compare where cars are classified tin each year.