How do I go quicker on the track?

[sailaholic]

I'm going to throw some disagreement in. Because it's a forum and we can't have consensus.

To me it sounds like you are unsure where the limit is, your ability to judge the limit, and how to handle going past the limit.

R spec tires will make this worse. Sure they grip better. But the let go harder too. Low end tires will often squeal at the limit and also have a more progressive grip drop off as you exceed the limits.

So r specs will make the car faster, but not the driver.

I'd recommend getting more time in a low friction environment. Either dirt, skid pad or cheap tires. You'll be able to learn what the car tells you and have spins / offs with minimal consequence (most likely only ego battered).

You might find out your extra "5%" is actually 15%. You can then move up 10% while keeping your reserve and know when you dip into it.


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[rascal]

I'd recommend getting more time in a low friction environment. Either dirt, skid pad or cheap tires. You'll be able to learn what the car tells you and have spins / offs with minimal consequence (most likely only ego battered).

I totally agree.
Last time I instructed one of our first timers, it started raining just as we were about to suit up and go out, and he suggested that he might skip the session as didnt want to go out in the rain.
I convinced him that going out was in fact the best thing he could do, as he would be able to find the limits at a much lower speed, and therefore more likely to be able to recover from exceeding them, as you wouldn't be going as fast.
Catching a 70kmh slide is much easier than a 130kmh one..

[NitroDann]

I didn't even read the thread but I know this is right.

Buy a cheap caged dirt car and do 6 months of club rally.

[Magpie]

I just spent the day at the Drivemasters dirt sprints hosted at IWMAC. Only 20 people attended and it was so much track time.

I learnt more about car control today than at any other track session. The dirt surface makes you feel what the car is doing and control it with all the resources available (brake, steering, throttle, track surface). It was surprising that the tyres (595 RSR's) gained 4 psi and recorded 55°c in surface temp just goes to show that doing it in the dirt is just as hard on tyres as bitumen.

I effectively ran in 3rd gear the whole track and was even loosing traction in places if not careful. You could drift your way around if you wanted but I was focusing on driving on the limit of grip without having to drift, albeit a little oversteer. This is what I struggle on the bitumen, I play it safe with understeer and not have the car setup for a little oversteer. The change to the OEM sway bar on the front was a smart move.

Car is now washed, tank topped up, tyres changed ready for general practice tomorrow. Hopefully I will be able to push a little harder and go for a little oversteer!

Shane has been suggesting for a while now that I get my arse out there and try it out. He was right and I'm kicking myself for not getting out there sooner. I'm going to attend more dirt sprints and make it part of my track time!

What the previous posters have said get some track time in the dirt (low friction environment).

This is a lap with Peter Finn in the passenger seat.

[davekmoore]

It would still be interesting to hear opinions on my original questions, which are below, and now modified based on some of the answers very kindly and very quickly provided again by everyone here:

So how much are the following worth on a track which is 105-120 seconds in an MX-5?

A. Heaps of practice on a simulator (on general tracks, probs not Vic ones).
B. Some track days where all I do is get tuition.
C. Reduce driver weight by 20kg and increase fitness by 20%.
D. Being prepared to have "offs" in search of the other 5?%. [More bravery plus a towcar and trailer might need to be involved in this]
E1. Find 100kg (?) to pull out. The rest of the a/c, power steering, sound proofing (and what else?).
E2. R spec tyres to replace the worn high spec road tyres.
F. Front splitter/air dam and rear wing.
G. Better coilovers with stiffer track spec springs, better bushings, bigger swaybars, alignment, corner weighting, seam welding.
H. Change diff ratio to one where 6th actually gets used and all the ratios are effectively closer together.

My new guesses are:
A) 2 seconds
B) 2
C) 1
D) 1
E1) 1
E2) 2
F) 1
G) 1
H) 1

Your thoughts?

A) 1.0secs
B) 5.0secs
C) 0.2secs
D) Unnecessary. You only need that level of commitment when you are down to finding the last 0.1 secs. (and probably at that point looking at sub 1:50s..)
E) 1.0secs, though living with a noisy, hot, less waterproof, much less enjoyable drive for the sake of lap times (unless 100% dedicated track car). Already noisy and hot.
E2) 2.0 secs and have another dedicated set of track rims. Yup, first track day with the Hankook road tyres was 4 seconds slower than on R888s. There are now separate road rims and track rims. The Hankooks on the track rims are probs getting near to legal limits for trips to and from the track.
F) 1.5 - 2.0 secs, though you still need to learn to drive it harder to match the extra grip, otherwise 1.5sec slower due to extra drag
G) 1.0 - 4.0secs depending on how much you spend/how far you go/ and what condition the current setup is in
H) probably unnecessary once the above is sorted..

Thanks rascal. I particularly see what you mean by H. Wouldn't it be great if I had unlimited time to improve me and an unlimited budget and inclination to improve the car as your total of 15 seconds would get me under 1:45s!

Serious aero probably won't ever happen as it's also a road car. I was just interested in how much time it's worth. R specs might have to happen sooner rather than later as the Hankooks are probs getting a bit worn for drives to and from the track and I don't want to do those drives on the road wheels/tyres while carrying track wheels and tyres in the car.

I'm very grateful for all the other replies too and don't disagree with them, but would love to have other people's opinions of A to H in the same way rascal has presented his. Pretty please. In return I promise to spend nothing on the car (except maybe R secs for the track and for to and from the track) until I've got an idea how much I can be improved (if at all).

[Magpie]

I think it is a too subjective question and you will end up focusing on the item that gets the most votes for the most time. Pick one item and work on that once you have exhausted that move on to the next. You can eat an elephant in small bites.

A. 42
B. 42
C. 42
D. 42
E. 42
E. 42
F. 42
G. 42
H. 42

[lightyear]

So your exercising and dieting, that's good. But have you considered eating only fast food? After all, you are what you eat.
(Lame dad joke)..

[plohl]

Shane has been suggesting for a while now that I get my arse out there and try it out. He was right and I'm kicking myself for not getting out there sooner. I'm going to attend more dirt sprints and make it part of my track time!

GOOD!

[Boyracer]

How do you go quicker on the track??
Drive faster...

[The American]

This is where I learned to find the limits. It's not dirt, but there's nothing to hit, and you really have to think about corners because you can't even see them!





If there were more American-style Autocross events around, I'd be very keen...

[davekmoore]

Thanks peeps. Many excellent thoughts here. I especially enjoyed the suggestion to always eat fast food (particularly given it came from someone who got me banned from PI last time he was anywhere near my car).

Yes, I want to go better. Many times I wish I'd kept my '90 Eunos as a track car and just kept learning to drive that better while leaving the then lovely SE as my then refined road car. But here I am with just the modified SE that's a lot quicker than I am and it would be more satisfying if I was using it better.

My lack of short term memory rules out autotests.

Are the DTMs bumpy enough to ruin my back again? If not, where can I get to drive one near Mornington, Vic?

The car/driver with 205 R specs is 4 seconds less slow around Winton long than on the present 225 Hankook RS3s, so it seems both of us can use the better grip from grippier tyres. Still relatively slow on the R888s, but had no issues with them being sudden at the limit, perhaps because I'm not getting to their limits everywhere, although my gut feeling was that they behaved just as controllably as road tyres but with more grip in corners and under braking and with less wheelspin under acceleration.

The answer to The Meaning of Life is no longer 42. Inflation in some countries and deflation in others has changed it to 47.432 on average. Changes to the rate of GST ......

The aim of the original post was not to do all or any of the things in the list, but to prioritise them and do them one at a time. Also to check I wasn't wasting my time on just training me if there was a major fault(s) with the car (and yes, David and Brendan, by all means drive the car to see how slow I really am, but please don't get me banned again). Note that I always had training for the nut behind the wheel as the top priority, and that I'm not trying to avoid doing that. The rest of the list was, and still is, to avoid wasting money. There have been enough replies (thank you) telling me to work on me that I realise this is an even higher priority than previously thought.

So future replies will be helpful if:

you rank A-H in my post of Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:37 pm please

OR

if you tell me what driver training including on tracks, skidpans, dirt etc is available in and around Melbourne

OR

if you offer me wheels, pedals, PS3 etc that you've grown out of (+ any thoughts on whether my 4 year old high spec big screen laptop might be an ok alternative to a PS3?)

Please just don't tell me again to improve myself and leave the car alone, thanks. It's been said, and I agree!

[Dan]

if you offer me wheels, pedals, PS3 etc that you've grown out of (+ any thoughts on whether my 4 year old high spec big screen laptop might be an ok alternative to a PS3?)

Your laptop would be better than a PS3 if you can run iRacing and If your laptop was high end back then it could work, I know iRacing works on my 2013 Macbook Pro (it doesn't meet the minimum system requirements on the website around RAM with only 4GB but it works well).

You can get a wheel you could start with for $97 from ebgames (https://ebgames.com.au/ps3-143200-Logit ... yStation-3), I have recommended that to a couple of friends, tried it myself and think if you want to dip your toes in the water it's a good starter wheel that you can probably sell for $70 used and lose less than $30 if you don't like the game or you upgrade.

You can get 3 months of iRacing for $15 here http://www.iracing.com/membership/ and I think the Phillip Island track would cost you another $15.

Read this beginners guide before you start https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums ... er-s-guide.

There are some really good guides online of how to drive the tracks, here's an 8 minute tutorial on Laguna Seca, these sorts of guides will teach you how to drive the specific tracks and I think more importantly how to think about driving tracks which is a big benefit to you in real life.

[shortSteve]

here is a quick blurb of what my time on the track is like. When I'm pushing to go quicker I'm getting to the point where I'm having an internal battle between my common sense and my competitive side at every corner on the track.

6 Months ago at Barbagallo - 2nd session.

At this time in the event, I need to drop 0.2 seconds off my PB to beat a Lotus... I'm driving the car right up to the limit and stepping over it often enough to know where that line is. All I need is to nail it for that one fast lap! Braking points keep getting later and later, well past the point where my brain is screaming to step on the brakes, but I know I have to hold off that extra 5 - 10 meters to drop 0.1sec at this point in the track. The tyres are chirping under brakes with the back of the car squirming a little as I try to drop as much speed as possible in what looks like far too little distance to wash of the speed... and then still have the courage to get off the brakes earlier than makes sense so that I'm carrying more speed through the corner. I know I've gone too far when I'm in the dirt or having to lift the throttle after mid corner just to make it.

On the esses I know I can't lift the throttle even though every part of me is telling me I have to. I have to ignore the voice of common sense screaming in my head and just keep it nailed. The car drifts wide over the crest and the back gets a bit loose, I'm carrying far more speed than usual and I've drifted in on my normal braking line but somehow I still manage to brake and turn the car into the left hander. That was close, a smidgen more and I would have been in trouble... a combination of luck and skill kept me on the track. I make a mental note for future laps that I need to make sure the car is straight when I hit the brakes or I'll be off the track.

I know it was a quick lap even before I see the time because my hand is shaking a little from the adrenaline. My time shows I dropped that 0.2 of a second I needed... only to see that the Lotus I'm chasing dropped 0.2 seconds as well... so it's back out there next session to do it all again and somehow find that extra 0.2 seconds that 30 minutes ago I thought would be impossible. Maybe tyre pressures? even more commitment into turn 6? Faster shifts?... probably a combination of all 3. The new ground I broke in that last fast lap I now need to do every time plus more, and each time I successfully do it, that level of fear drops a little bit further, so that now I can achieve that same maneuver without thinking about it. Instead I'm thinking about things further up the road like braking later and optimising my turn in.

It's that evolution of trialing new things, pushing past your safety limits, getting used to the risk and making it part of every lap that makes you a quicker driver. If you're not comfortable risking the car and yourself for that next 0.1 second you'll never get there.

Hi, new to MX5, but have done a few laps of Barbs and Collie on bikes, and when pushing for more time, you have to pick the bikes(cars) strengths to utilise this. Example, the esses out of 1 through to 4, a later apex at 1 gives you a straighter run into the esses, possibly carrying a few more km/hr while also giving you a shallower line into 3, meaning it's more like a kink and a corner then 2 corners... 4 is a common place to lose speed, is uphill and change direction over skyline, a later, wider entry can carry more speed (wider arc), and the later you flick into 5 over the hill the longer you can be accelerating, meaning a faster run down to basin while not losing out on braking into 4 and lack of power to climb out. On the bike, basin is one of those corners that sucks you out wider and off camber, again either drop speed and stay tight (but lack of power will kill your run up the hill) or stay mid track on turn in to wash off speed as you apex a little later, while accelerating from mid track (iirc there is a drain on the inside 2/3 of the way through, should be on the gas before getting near the inside here...been a while tho for me.) Carries more speed over the hill and into 7. On the bike I could do the same time on a 600 as I could on the 750 by just adjusting lines/sacrificing a little entry angle/speed to get better straight line speed, which is where in lower powered bikes/cars the time can be made up.
Just my 2c....good luck with it

sS

[madjak]

Welcome to the forum shortSteve!

Bit off topic but what times to you get on the bike on the long track? Probably 60s or so? The esses in a car would be a fair bit different than on a bike. You'll find braking into the left hander is the main concern, so you need to stay well left at turn 2 so that you can straight line 3 for better control into 4. In a car you are flat for the esses, short stab of the brakes into turn 4 then flat all the way up over the hill into the basin.

[shortSteve]

Welcome to the forum shortSteve!

Bit off topic but what times to you get on the bike on the long track? Probably 60s or so? The esses in a car would be a fair bit different than on a bike. You'll find braking into the left hander is the main concern, so you need to stay well left at turn 2 so that you can straight line 3 for better control into 4. In a car you are flat for the esses, short stab of the brakes into turn 4 then flat all the way up over the hill into the basin.

apologise, post removed by request

sS