Cus' NA6

[Nevyn72]

I went supercharged, then bought the stuff to go turbo and now i want to put a 6 in it!

Yes, but you're a nutter Speed!

Any particular 6? The GM LX would be my pick.......

[speed]

I went supercharged, then bought the stuff to go turbo and now i want to put a 6 in it!

Yes, but you're a nutter Speed!

Any particular 6? The GM LX would be my pick.......

Totally. The 6 I'm considering is made by VW ;)

[speed]

Size and weight being major considerations!

So Cus, what are your plans?

[Cus]

Indeed, Turbo! The reason is overtaking a turbo diesel 4WD in the mountains is almost impossible, they slaughter me in straight-line acceleration.... then slow down for corners because they're chickens!

Still waiting on calls and emails from people though.

The local EPA test station was just for noise and not for emissions, so they sent me off to talk to the EPA. The EPA sent me back to VicRoads, who after some confusion put me in contact with ViPac, who I'm currently awaiting a call back from because from the sound of if they only have one tester, and he likes to handle the calls as well as do the testing, and he's always busy.

I'm also waiting for an email back from AVO in regards to how "approved" their approved NA6 kits are, all they've told me so far is that it's "ADR 79 approved" - which sounds good, except I know that the tune of a car will affect the emissions as well as the design of a turbo manifold....

So far the facts I know are as follows: I need a VASS (Engineers report), which includes a section on emissions testing. Once completed I take that to VicRoads, they sight the car, then I'm legal.

The VASS does defer to the NCOP (i think it's called) which is the national standard for modifying cars, so I'm thinking could well be easier (ie; less waiting for the one guy that does all of vic) to get it tested in another state.

More talking with people to come.

[smy0003]

Ahhhhhh Victoria.
They'll happily defect you but the procedure for compliance is unfathomable.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

[bruce]

You cannot get the car emissions tested in another State. Testing procedures vary in difft States, and your engineer will only recognise the one he recommends. You can email the tester - I've dealt with him when getting my 5 tested. He is a good guy.
The list of engineers was easy to find. Getting one to agree to approve it was difficult.

[Cus]

I think half of the issue is there's no clear-cut path to compliance, and the parties involved in compliance don't seem to know what's needed from the other parties.

Maybe I should work backwards and just go see the police. They're the ones that will write the tickets! lol

Bruce, when did you get your car tested? (and where, what mods, etc - feel free to PM it)

_____
Queue several hours of research....
_____

After 'following my nose' through a whole bunch of documents that are getting more and more complicated with each new document I end up in, the situation seems to be as follows:

Currently VicRoads "VSI Number 8" reads: (Dated Oct 2011)

fitting of turbo chargers or superchargers other than
those fitted by the original manufacturer must be
certified by a VASS Signatory as complying with VSB 14
Modification Code LA3

VSB 14 is a "national document" so unless victoria is the only state following the national guidelines, tests performed in other states "should" be valid? (https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/veh ... _ncop.aspx)

LA3 in that document is "LA3 Supercharger and Turbocharger Installation" (Dated Jan 2011) has a checklist of what are basically "Engineer's discretion" items with two "approval required" items - LT3 (Emissions), and LT4 (noise), with an optional LG1 (Modifications to braking system, may not apply because they're OEM brakes from a newer model, I'll put that on the list for the engineer's discussion)

LT3 boils down to "Pass an IM240 test for my category and year of vehicle" - which is apparently stupidly expensive in Vic, and completely free in NSW.... but I still haven't heard from ViPac to see if they're IM240-testing, or doing some other test and declaring a pass or fail based on .... whatever they've decided.

And I'm getting a sore head working out what ADR category my vehicle should be - guessing 79, because that's what AVO said the kit meets, but still, that's just a guess.

I can see why people tell me not to bother with it... lol

[speed]

Move to NSW

But seriously, wonder if a car is legally complied in NSW and purchased by a Victorian and transferred to VIC roads, would it be legal in VIC then?

Bloody red tape!

[hks_kansei]

But seriously, wonder if a car is legally complied in NSW and purchased by a Victorian and transferred to VIC roads, would it be legal in VIC then?

Nope.

A member a while back (blue94t?) was stung by that.

From memory he called Vicroads and asked them, was told "if it's legal in QLD it;s legal here"
Bought the car, registered it, got a defect and EPA notice, and basically had to bin the car since the VIN had an EPA notice listed against it.

[hks_kansei]

Ahhhhhh Victoria.
They'll happily defect you but the procedure for compliance is unfathomable.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

This is the issue I have with Vic modification laws.

Doing the right thing is a lot harder and more expensive than the wrong way.

[Cus]

I'm thinking about it speed! I asked my sisters, they said it wasn't an unreasonable thing to do

hks; you're not wrong. Doing it "properly" shouldn't be more expensive and stressful than doing it the "wrong" way! My inner pessimist tells me there's probably a clause in a government document somewhere that says "try and avoid allowing people to modify their cars"...

The answer from people on forums about registering a non-VIC-complied vehicle in VIC is is a resounding "NO!" There's obviously some other reason at play, given the trail I've been on so far indicates that a VIC engineer's report (VASS) defers back to VSB14 (National Document) which in turn refers to various ADRs (also, National Documents). The emission test seems to be a national standard. However autospeed's "Dirty Stuff" articles, which I still haven't finished reading, alludes to the states each having their own take on the IM240 test, which is weird, given that once again, there're just some numbers in an ADR saying "must meet these gas emissions per kilometer" - the IM240 test is just one method of testing emissions output per kilometer.

I sill haven't heard from ViPac though, so unsure what they do or how they do it, aside from "at great expense" - from reading forums even that seems to vary wildly from $1800 - $5000.

But I did hear back from AVO and the documentation they've provided says ADR 37/00 - it does not appear to answer the engineer-blokes question of how it's approved.... we continue on.... (Actually, I think that's the one I need, ADR 37/00 was superseded by ADR 79/00 in Oct 2006 for new vehicles, so I'm guessing 37/00 applies to my 1990 car, it's really hard to work out without already having years of experience dealing with ADRs)

...then I saw tickets for Maitreya were on sale, and I've missed all of the first round cheap tickets, and they still haven't announced any acts. People have been telling me for years to go, and I never have. I think I need to revisit some priorities. Spend a percentage of my turbo fund on a ticket to Maitreya, move interstate for an easier turbo setup, and then all of life's problems are solved.

[hks_kansei]

My understanding, and bear in mind it's been ages since I read the EPA rules, was that the difficult part in Vic isn;t so much the turbo gear, that's all covered by the national ADR stuff.

The difficulty is the ECU.

there is (or was) a clause in the Vic EPA regs that basically said an ECU must NOT be reprogrammable by the end user.

So you can show up, have everything all good, meet every ADR, meet every emission requirement.
But the second the EPA see the ECU is able to have the tune changed, bang, big fat failed stamp..... regardless of if it passed all the rest.

as I said, it's been ages since I read the rules, so they might have changed in the past 5ish years.


I do however recall something about other people getting things passed by having the ECU password locked, or encrypted. From memory that's how a lot of the 4age engined lotus super7 replicas got through (and possibly how AVO got theirs through)

worth noting though that the Super7 guys are all registered as ICV or "Individually constructed vehicles" so they may be allowed more lenient rules?

[hks_kansei]

Found the clause that kills it:

7. Engine management systems
An engine management system enables the engine to
function with minimum emissions under a wide range
of operating conditions. It also uses a variety of
sensors to optimise combustion by altering how the
engine operates, thus maximising fuel economy,
engine power and engine life. A system that is not
designed specifically for the engine it is fitted to is
likely to increase emissions, reduce engine power,
have poor fuel economy and reduce the life of the
engine.
Non-original electronic chips or computers, whether
fitted as a direct replacement or in a ‘piggy-back’
configuration, are not permitted to be used in an
engine management system unless it can be
demonstrated that their installation and use allows the
vehicle to meet the appropriate ADR. They must also
be sealed or otherwise constructed so as not to be
reprogrammable.

http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/our-work/publ ... uly/1031-3

Page 5, clause 7.


it's worth discussing this part with your engineer. They may know more about the specifics of what constitutes a "sealed" ECU, whether it needs to be some fancy software stuff, or as simple as screwing a cover over the ECU serial plug with tamperproof screws.

[hks_kansei]

Regarding the AVO having approval.

The EPA document mentions the allowance of "type approval" for turbocharger installations.

This means that if it's been done before and has passed all the emissions, Vicroads, etc, etc then the next time you do it the same wya you can skip some steps, the theory being that car A passed, so car B with the same stuff will too.

That is most likely what AVO have done, having likely spent a lot of cash getting one NA6 passed, then being able to skip a lot of steps for the approval of the ones afterwards. (of course, from a business perspective this also allows them to amortize the cost of the original approval over the future conversions they do)

Now the fact that they don't do NA8s or NBs would suggest to me that either they didnt do as well from the NA6 kits as they expected, or more likely, that the NA6 kit only just passed and that the NA8 and later, being newer cars, must meet some different requirements.

[Cus]

You're a gun, hks!

I'll definitely talk with the engineer about how to lock the ECU to meet his needs. "Sealed or otherwise constructed so as not to be reprogrammable." - OEM ECUs in most modern cars "can" be reprogrammed, if you're brave enough (The NA6 ECU looks to be non-programmable through poor design, not good security) and I'm the sort of person where if I have physical access to a device, most of it's security measures, aren't.

I'd probably have been on of those "bad" hackers if dad hadn't given me a talk on the day we got internet that went simply "If I ever find out you've been hacking, I'll box ya f*ckin head in" - It was a good talk... ...might have something to do with the "hacking award" my best friend and I got at the end of grade 6, for what we'll call "educating the teaching faculty on the dangers of not making backups of the end of year reports", our teacher (the vice-principal) had made a joke that they were being encouraged not to write negative things in the school reports, so "If we got empty report cards, don't blame him" - We were simply ensuring that everyone had the same grades as us, because we had good grades!

I'm going to be using a MS3Pro (Module, not a PNP) so I'll find a way to make it locked - the engineer and whoever else won't be able to bypass the lock and reprogram the ECU (and they will be welcome to try) - personally once it's in the car and legal, I don't care if it's not programmable, I'll have forced induction, and that's all I really want!

Re: NB kits, From the documentation sent by AVO, the NA6 kit "smashed it in" so to speak; I think new emissions laws are what stalled progress - or a lack of customers within so many financial years to cover the costs on paper; Hydrocarbon was 0.30 of 0.85, Carbon Monoxide was 2.31 of 8.45 and Nitrogen was 0.44 of 1.75 - The documentation is also really hard to read and has clearly been photocopied many, many times since the original was printed in 1992, but does not seem to have an approval number anywhere, unless they've left that page out until after I've forked over the money and they've installed the kit as per how it was approved (not an unreasonable assumption)