MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
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- Racing Driver
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
I picked up the rings today. These were the second set I ordered last week. The first set is still being delivered thanks to Auspost.
After 6 long hours, the engine is back in the car and fired up first go. I'm going to run it at a club event tomorrow to bed in the rings before the National Hillclimb Championships next week.
In the meantime I added a Longacre oil pressure gauge with 3 warning levels. It can be set to have a solid light come on below set psi, flashing led next then the entire gauge flashes if it drops too low. This is entirely seperate to my ecu oil pressure. I've fixed this to the roll cage so its in my view.
I have also wrapped the headers, mostly because I had the wrap already.
Hopefully I won't have any more issues.. at least for a while so I can get back to my suspension.
After 6 long hours, the engine is back in the car and fired up first go. I'm going to run it at a club event tomorrow to bed in the rings before the National Hillclimb Championships next week.
In the meantime I added a Longacre oil pressure gauge with 3 warning levels. It can be set to have a solid light come on below set psi, flashing led next then the entire gauge flashes if it drops too low. This is entirely seperate to my ecu oil pressure. I've fixed this to the roll cage so its in my view.
I have also wrapped the headers, mostly because I had the wrap already.
Hopefully I won't have any more issues.. at least for a while so I can get back to my suspension.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Custom billet throttle wheel. I'll lighten it further yet by drilling out the guts of it and I might get it anodised so it stays pretty. Also the bolts I've used are too long but at least it's on and working.
I also have tidied up my oil pressure sensors and installed a seperate oil pressure gauge with 3 levels of warning. This should make it easier to spot any drops in oil pressure whilst I'm running.
I also have tidied up my oil pressure sensors and installed a seperate oil pressure gauge with 3 levels of warning. This should make it easier to spot any drops in oil pressure whilst I'm running.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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- Fast Driver
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
have you thought about maybe using a oil accumulator?
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
I have... but I really don't think my bearing was due to oil pressure. I think they were damaged when I first started this engine as it had been sitting for years and took far too long to build pressure.
I'm going to monitor oil pressure very closely from now on and start doing oil analysis. If there is an issue with starvation I think a baffled sump is probably sufficient. The issue I have with accumulators or accusumps is they add a lot of complexity and can cause issues if not perfect. Really the stock oiling system should be fine.
I'm going to monitor oil pressure very closely from now on and start doing oil analysis. If there is an issue with starvation I think a baffled sump is probably sufficient. The issue I have with accumulators or accusumps is they add a lot of complexity and can cause issues if not perfect. Really the stock oiling system should be fine.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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- Speed Racer
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Not sure which Haltech ECU you are running but some do have engine protection settings that can be activated to put the car in limp mode.
Very neat on the sensors.
Good luck at the hill climb event. As Doug would say in Queensland 'it is not a race without a mx5 in it'.
Very neat on the sensors.
Good luck at the hill climb event. As Doug would say in Queensland 'it is not a race without a mx5 in it'.
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Engine protection is enabled... it will go into limp mode if oil pressure drops below 25psi over 1500 rpm.
The national hillclimb championship is on this weekend. The issue is that there aren't enough cars entered in CAMS 2B to form a class so instead I'd have to run in Formula Libre which would mean I'm up against very fast cars. I figured I'll just compete in the state comp against my normal competitors which is a bit of a shame.
Still it will be good to see the cars that have come across from over east.
The national hillclimb championship is on this weekend. The issue is that there aren't enough cars entered in CAMS 2B to form a class so instead I'd have to run in Formula Libre which would mean I'm up against very fast cars. I figured I'll just compete in the state comp against my normal competitors which is a bit of a shame.
Still it will be good to see the cars that have come across from over east.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
- DanZig
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Great build and awesome to see the bits you've been making and sharing. Very impressive.
More vids!
More vids!
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Here you go... A video of the run at the Australian Hill Climb Championships a few weeks ago. I ended up winning the class against a 190wHP first gen Lotus Elise by about half a second.
I left the camera on after finishing the first day so I didn't get my fastest run on the second day. Still, this one looked pretty good. It's hard to see in the video but the turn in to the top of the hill is completely blind and I'm only just backing off a touch. It's very bumpy and rough up there so it takes a bit of faith to nail it.
I left the camera on after finishing the first day so I didn't get my fastest run on the second day. Still, this one looked pretty good. It's hard to see in the video but the turn in to the top of the hill is completely blind and I'm only just backing off a touch. It's very bumpy and rough up there so it takes a bit of faith to nail it.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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- Racing Driver
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
love it, bit of courage there.
Garage Thread...viewtopic.php?f=57&t=67687
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- Fast Driver
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Absolutely love how the engine sounds. In no small part I hope the alterations and changes that I'm making emulate a similar sound.
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
That wasn't my fastest run as I lost a second over the top of the hill with the lockup. I think I dropped another 0.7 sec off this time. The rest of the run was probably my quickest though.
You can just make out the shift light working at the start of the run. The Nexus tablet in the center console is giving me a running delta time to my previous fastest run, as well as all other ecu sensor data.
It was great seeing some of the National competitors run. The hillclimb open wheelers are awesome displays of engineering. The aero package on Gary West's car is epic. You can see it at 1:24 getting prepped for the next run.
You can just make out the shift light working at the start of the run. The Nexus tablet in the center console is giving me a running delta time to my previous fastest run, as well as all other ecu sensor data.
It was great seeing some of the National competitors run. The hillclimb open wheelers are awesome displays of engineering. The aero package on Gary West's car is epic. You can see it at 1:24 getting prepped for the next run.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Ice88 wrote:Absolutely love how the engine sounds. In no small part I hope the alterations and changes that I'm making emulate a similar sound.
It's loud... I don't think my 3" exhaust helps much there. It actually has a very deep note to it especially when idling which the GoPro doesn't really pick up. I think is a combination of the large diameter and the thicker aluminium tubing I've used in the exhaust.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
- DanZig
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- Location: Adelaide
Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Great vid, sounds fantastic and looks a blast to drive. Good save after the lockup too.
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Brake Booster Delete - Dual Master Install
I've hated my brake booster since I installed my bigger brakes and race engine. The cams create vacuum pulses as I blip the throttle down the gears so my brake boost assist fluctuates. This means I can feel the pedal gain and lose assists whilst hard under brakes. I also find upon initial application I get a large boost assist as the booster is in vacuum, only then to loose the assist halfway through the brakes. The booster had to go, plus it is heavy and ugly.
My plan initially was to reuse the stock tandem master and just remove the booster. Halfway through this I figured I'd go all out and put in a proper dual master with an adjustable balance bar. Here is my initial design:
First some background:
I don't have stock brakes, so if you are copying this you'll need to factor in the piston sizes as well as rotor sizes. I run Wilwood Dynapro 4 pot calipers (same area as stock) on 11.75" front rotors, and NA6 stock calipers on offset brackets on 11.44" rear rotors.
This effectively gives me slightly more rearwards bias over a stock setup, but also gives me a decent leverage ratio as the calipers are acting on the rotor from further out.
I used to run with a Wilwood proportioning valve. Fully open I'd get my rear squirming under brakes. I found the balance point approx 15% closed.
The stock tandem master is a 7/8" piston. The front and rear are separated via a floating piston, but for pressure calcs it ends up being equal to a single 7/8" piston. When you replace this single master with dual, you have to size the masters at 75% of the diameter. Area (pressure) = pi * r^2. This sizes the replacement masters at 0.656" but since I need some less rear bias, I chose a 5/8" Master for the front, 0.7" master for the rear.
Pedal Box Modifications
Once the brake booster is removed, there are 4 mounting points that the masters and the pedal box can mount through. My plan was to use the existing holes, which are the exact same centers as the master cylinder mounting points and just so happens to also line up nicely with a standard 2.5" - 3" balance bar. This means the only modifcations to the firewall and pedal box are to dill some new holes to clear the new locations of the masters.
These same holes also need to be drilled into the firewall. I think the diameter is 28mm but this will depend on the master cylinder used. The holes in the pedal box unfortunately weaken the structure a lot so it will need to be braced to get back some strength. Without a booster I'll be putting more pressure on the pedal so everything needs to be strong.
The balance bar itself gets welded into the pedal at the same pivot point as the stock push rod fixing. Once again you need to drill a hole of suitable size to snugly fit the outer sleeve and then weld it in.
If later I find I need to increase the pedal ratio from 4:1 (stock) to 6:1 then I'll need to move the top pivot point down around 20mm and shorten the pedal the same amount. This would give me a 150% increase in pedal pressure with the downside of an addition mount of pedal movement. For now I'll keep everything at the stock ratios.
I added some bracings to the sides and down the center out of some 2mm steel plate. I didn't take any photos of these but will try and take some in the car so you can see what I did.
I've hated my brake booster since I installed my bigger brakes and race engine. The cams create vacuum pulses as I blip the throttle down the gears so my brake boost assist fluctuates. This means I can feel the pedal gain and lose assists whilst hard under brakes. I also find upon initial application I get a large boost assist as the booster is in vacuum, only then to loose the assist halfway through the brakes. The booster had to go, plus it is heavy and ugly.
My plan initially was to reuse the stock tandem master and just remove the booster. Halfway through this I figured I'd go all out and put in a proper dual master with an adjustable balance bar. Here is my initial design:
First some background:
I don't have stock brakes, so if you are copying this you'll need to factor in the piston sizes as well as rotor sizes. I run Wilwood Dynapro 4 pot calipers (same area as stock) on 11.75" front rotors, and NA6 stock calipers on offset brackets on 11.44" rear rotors.
This effectively gives me slightly more rearwards bias over a stock setup, but also gives me a decent leverage ratio as the calipers are acting on the rotor from further out.
I used to run with a Wilwood proportioning valve. Fully open I'd get my rear squirming under brakes. I found the balance point approx 15% closed.
The stock tandem master is a 7/8" piston. The front and rear are separated via a floating piston, but for pressure calcs it ends up being equal to a single 7/8" piston. When you replace this single master with dual, you have to size the masters at 75% of the diameter. Area (pressure) = pi * r^2. This sizes the replacement masters at 0.656" but since I need some less rear bias, I chose a 5/8" Master for the front, 0.7" master for the rear.
Pedal Box Modifications
Once the brake booster is removed, there are 4 mounting points that the masters and the pedal box can mount through. My plan was to use the existing holes, which are the exact same centers as the master cylinder mounting points and just so happens to also line up nicely with a standard 2.5" - 3" balance bar. This means the only modifcations to the firewall and pedal box are to dill some new holes to clear the new locations of the masters.
These same holes also need to be drilled into the firewall. I think the diameter is 28mm but this will depend on the master cylinder used. The holes in the pedal box unfortunately weaken the structure a lot so it will need to be braced to get back some strength. Without a booster I'll be putting more pressure on the pedal so everything needs to be strong.
The balance bar itself gets welded into the pedal at the same pivot point as the stock push rod fixing. Once again you need to drill a hole of suitable size to snugly fit the outer sleeve and then weld it in.
If later I find I need to increase the pedal ratio from 4:1 (stock) to 6:1 then I'll need to move the top pivot point down around 20mm and shorten the pedal the same amount. This would give me a 150% increase in pedal pressure with the downside of an addition mount of pedal movement. For now I'll keep everything at the stock ratios.
I added some bracings to the sides and down the center out of some 2mm steel plate. I didn't take any photos of these but will try and take some in the car so you can see what I did.
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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- Racing Driver
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- Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:11 pm
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Re: MADJAK's NA8 - 200+HP N/A
Installation
Bolting it all into the car, you can see the mounting points of the masters as well as my blockoff plate made from thin ally.
It's all a bit awkward to bolt up with the masters needing to be rotated into the balance bar joints with the ally block off plate in between it all and then insert the bolts from underneath and tightened. I hate working under the dash but this is especially hard.
In order to connect my brake lines and brake sensors I decided to make a manifold out of billet ally instead of using an array of fittings. Connecting the stock M10 inverted flare fittings to 1/8" npt to the 3/8" masters is a nightmare. So instead I'm using -3AN flexible lines to connect to a manifold with 1/8" ports throughout (the same as my sensors) and then cut and terminate the stock lines with fittings that will go into the 1/8" ports.
Here is my manifold:
It's made by drilling and tapping into a solid ally block. The end ports are journal lines drilled to connect the top and bottom ports and then are capped off with plugs. You can see the CAD plan I drew up in the background. I should have left slightly more room as it's all a bit tight when installed, but at least it's lighter. The front and rear systems are not connected, so the rear gets a single input from the master, a port for the brake sensor and a single output for the rear line, whilst the front gets the input, brake sensor and two outputs for each of the front lines.
It is a lot shorter without the booster!
Final installation (almost - still needs the front and rear lines connected in this photo)
Bleeding
It's harder than you think to bleed dual master setups. You ideally need three people... One on the pedal and one at the front and back bleeding at the same time. If you build pressure in one circuit then the bias bar prevents a lot of the movement of the other circuit. Also, because the hydraulic system is split, bleeding one corner results in half the flow of the stock setup. This means it's hard to push bubbles out of high points because the fluid speed is far less. After several attempts to bleed I made my own pressure bleeder and ended up getting all lines bleed cleanly.
Final Result
Driving on the road, the pedal feels awesome. I'll be running the car this weekend at the final round of the CAMS Speed Event Series at Barbagallo raceway. winding the bias bar to the full extent either way results in that end of the car locking first which is ideal. I haven't found the balance point in the middle but I'll do that on the track when everything is at temp. I'll do a full report after the weekend.
Parts: (around $450 - 500, installation and mods around 6 hours)
Girling 0.7" master ~ $50
OBP 0.625" master ~ $60
Reservoirs ~ $25 each
Balance bar ~ $110 (can get cheaper but this was nice and light)
Remote adjuster ~ $80
Fittings and hoses ~ $120
Bolting it all into the car, you can see the mounting points of the masters as well as my blockoff plate made from thin ally.
It's all a bit awkward to bolt up with the masters needing to be rotated into the balance bar joints with the ally block off plate in between it all and then insert the bolts from underneath and tightened. I hate working under the dash but this is especially hard.
In order to connect my brake lines and brake sensors I decided to make a manifold out of billet ally instead of using an array of fittings. Connecting the stock M10 inverted flare fittings to 1/8" npt to the 3/8" masters is a nightmare. So instead I'm using -3AN flexible lines to connect to a manifold with 1/8" ports throughout (the same as my sensors) and then cut and terminate the stock lines with fittings that will go into the 1/8" ports.
Here is my manifold:
It's made by drilling and tapping into a solid ally block. The end ports are journal lines drilled to connect the top and bottom ports and then are capped off with plugs. You can see the CAD plan I drew up in the background. I should have left slightly more room as it's all a bit tight when installed, but at least it's lighter. The front and rear systems are not connected, so the rear gets a single input from the master, a port for the brake sensor and a single output for the rear line, whilst the front gets the input, brake sensor and two outputs for each of the front lines.
It is a lot shorter without the booster!
Final installation (almost - still needs the front and rear lines connected in this photo)
Bleeding
It's harder than you think to bleed dual master setups. You ideally need three people... One on the pedal and one at the front and back bleeding at the same time. If you build pressure in one circuit then the bias bar prevents a lot of the movement of the other circuit. Also, because the hydraulic system is split, bleeding one corner results in half the flow of the stock setup. This means it's hard to push bubbles out of high points because the fluid speed is far less. After several attempts to bleed I made my own pressure bleeder and ended up getting all lines bleed cleanly.
Final Result
Driving on the road, the pedal feels awesome. I'll be running the car this weekend at the final round of the CAMS Speed Event Series at Barbagallo raceway. winding the bias bar to the full extent either way results in that end of the car locking first which is ideal. I haven't found the balance point in the middle but I'll do that on the track when everything is at temp. I'll do a full report after the weekend.
Parts: (around $450 - 500, installation and mods around 6 hours)
Girling 0.7" master ~ $50
OBP 0.625" master ~ $60
Reservoirs ~ $25 each
Balance bar ~ $110 (can get cheaper but this was nice and light)
Remote adjuster ~ $80
Fittings and hoses ~ $120
NA8: N/A 200whp | Haltech | Skunk2 Intake | S90 TB | RCP | 5 speed c/r dogbox | 4.78 diff | AST Shocks
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
Barbs L: 64.12 | S: 58.62 | Collie: 49.72
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