Operation TLC

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:00 pm

Well well... there's the answer I suppose.
Big white box next to "Idle output (Hardware frequency)". Siiiigh.

Thanks Ice88... (for ruining my day)

Ice88 · Postby **Ice88** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:22 pm

ndragun wrote:Well well... there's the answer I suppose.
Big white box next to "Idle output (Hardware frequency)". Siiiigh.

Thanks Ice88... (for ruining my day)

Sorry bud. I didn't post it earlier as I wanted to ensure that all avenues were pursued rather then you writing it off

In theory you could still utilise the ms2 you'd just need to set a higher idle speed.

gslender · Postby **gslender** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:39 pm

ndragun wrote:No - it was built specially when I ordered the ITB kit from Maxime at rev9. I listed exactly what I needed from it, and it was built specifically for my setup. Admittedly I should have spent more time beforehand investigating what ecu I was getting, and it probably wouldn't have taken long for me to figure out I wanted an MS3 instead! It still more than likely would have come from mslabs, purely because Maxime sells it all as a package, and that's what I went for.

I guess I'm puzzled why you'd end up with an MS2 with firmware 3.3.2 beta6 on it - the current supported/recommended release is 3.4.0 (released Jul 2015) and the release prior to that was 3.3.3 (released Nov 2014), and before that 3.2.5 (back in June 2013) - these were the supported/recommended releases and 3.3.2 was never officially marked as a release that you should run an ECU on... so kinda assumed it was somebody else's 2nd hand work.

Just saying....

G

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:42 pm

gslender wrote:I guess I'm puzzled why you'd end up with an MS2 with firmware 3.3.2 beta6 on it - the current supported/recommended release is 3.4.0 (released Jul 2015) and the release prior to that was 3.3.3 (released Nov 2014), and before that 3.2.5 (back in June 2013) - these were the supported/recommended releases and 3.3.2 was never officially marked as a release that you should run an ECU on... so kinda assumed it was somebody else's 2nd hand work.

Just saying....

G

That firmware was what it came with, and is what is in his documentation. I don't have anything available to suggest what the current version for this particular box should be, and I don't think I want to risk trying anything different lest I brick it. At any rate, I think I've had just about enough of this debacle. I'm to blame, I ordered an MS2 Basic, without seeing that comparison guide. I then stated what I wanted through rev9 as part of the order process, and rather than notifying me that what I ordered wasn't capable of it, I got exactly what I ordered... That's my fault.

What are your recommendations Grant on a pre-built, all-singing, all-dancing MS3?

speed · Postby **speed** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:35 pm

I know I'm super new to this stuff so apologies if this is a stupid suggestion.
Couldn't you get the input and output bits and wire into your existing ecu?

Ice88 · Postby **Ice88** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:13 pm

ndragun wrote:
gslender wrote:I guess I'm puzzled why you'd end up with an MS2 with firmware 3.3.2 beta6 on it - the current supported/recommended release is 3.4.0 (released Jul 2015) and the release prior to that was 3.3.3 (released Nov 2014), and before that 3.2.5 (back in June 2013) - these were the supported/recommended releases and 3.3.2 was never officially marked as a release that you should run an ECU on... so kinda assumed it was somebody else's 2nd hand work.

Just saying....

G

That firmware was what it came with, and is what is in his documentation. I don't have anything available to suggest what the current version for this particular box should be, and I don't think I want to risk trying anything different lest I brick it. At any rate, I think I've had just about enough of this debacle. I'm to blame, I ordered an MS2 Basic, without seeing that comparison guide. I then stated what I wanted through rev9 as part of the order process, and rather than notifying me that what I ordered wasn't capable of it, I got exactly what I ordered... That's my fault.

What are your recommendations Grant on a pre-built, all-singing, all-dancing MS3?

I'm sorry that this was the outcome ndragun, truly.

And while I'm not grant. I figure I'd point out that the MS3 enhanced is the best option as it has the ability to utilise the clutch switch and neutral switch. Both valuable when setting up your idle control strategy as you ideally only want it engaging when the clutch is in, or the car is in neutral or both. (also want to ensure that it meets an RPM condition and/or load condition as well

)

To avoid the cost of getting a new ECU, or to put it off while you collate funds you could always just run a higher fixed idle to compensate.

speed wrote:I know I'm super new to this stuff so apologies if this is a stupid suggestion.
Couldn't you get the input and output bits and wire into your existing ecu?

The standard MS2 according to the documentation only has the facility to adjust idle based off coolant temp. Whether this is the same in the MS2 Basic, I have no idea. There doesn't appear to be much documentation around the basic

EDIT: actually you might be onto something:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... p-398.html

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:29 am

Ice88 wrote:I'm sorry that this was the outcome ndragun, truly.

And while I'm not grant. I figure I'd point out that the MS3 enhanced is the best option as it has the ability to utilise the clutch switch and neutral switch. Both valuable when setting up your idle control strategy as you ideally only want it engaging when the clutch is in, or the car is in neutral or both. (also want to ensure that it meets an RPM condition and/or load condition as well )

To avoid the cost of getting a new ECU, or to put it off while you collate funds you could always just run a higher fixed idle to compensate.

It's all good Ice - frankly its a relief that I've found the answer and it isn't something I was doing wrong, either with wiring or using the software. At the end of the day, an MS3 was always on the cards since I knew fairly early on some of the limitations with the MS2... just not THIS particular limitation!! :lol:

I had planned to move to MS3 only after I'd got it all tuned and happy, and then had a bit of proven track time with it. I was then going to progress on to more data logging for speed, pedal inputs, switchable maps, etc etc.

When I get a bit of free time I'll break out the Gopro and video the startup, idle and pootling round. You'll see the current configuration is far from problematic.

As you say, with just a smidge higher fixed idle, for the most part it would be perfectly fine for most people (although the A/C isn't regassed yet, so I'm not able to switch it on and see how it affects things). I just went to the trouble of incorporating IAC in this build, so I kind of want to follow through with it.

Pics of the IAC installed by the way;

You can see in this photo how relatively close the valve is to the alternator terminal. In reality its further than it looks, but because the Ford valve was bigger and has a vent valve on it, it was dangerously close - so with a bit of wobbling and flexing, sparks may ensue. So that was one of the main reasons I didn't persevere with it.
The mount onto the filter backing plate is just a barb fitting with the actual barb cut off. I originally had it with the barb left on, and it whistled, so that's why the barb is cut off and tapered out :lol:

From the underside (looking up from around the steering rack) and you can see the vac block lines in black at the bottom of the photo. Idle air feeds into the vac block when the valve is open.
I'm thinking I might have to change this though, since the idle air reduces vacuum in the brake booster until it closes off, and probably also affects the MAP reading.

TrackAttack · Postby **TrackAttack** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:42 am

Have you considered sourcing the alternator terminal cover? These are removable from the harness, and you could zip tie it back onto yours...?

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:55 am

TrackAttack wrote:Have you considered sourcing the alternator terminal cover? These are removable from the harness, and you could zip tie it back onto yours...?

Yea for sure - in fact I still do want it covered. I'd be lying if I said I haven't hit it with a spanner and scared the bejesus out of myself already... :oops:

As it happened mine had perished and fallen off, which is why its not there. If it WAS hitting though to the point where I was relying on a rubber boot, I'd be worried that the rubber boot wore through anyway... so I'd want to get it further away regardless.

Ice88 · Postby **Ice88** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:53 pm

ndragun wrote:
TrackAttack wrote:Have you considered sourcing the alternator terminal cover? These are removable from the harness, and you could zip tie it back onto yours...?

Yea for sure - in fact I still do want it covered. I'd be lying if I said I haven't hit it with a spanner and scared the bejesus out of myself already...

As it happened mine had perished and fallen off, which is why its not there. If it WAS hitting though to the point where I was relying on a rubber boot, I'd be worried that the rubber boot wore through anyway... so I'd want to get it further away regardless.

I can pull one off a spare loom I have lying around?

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:06 pm

Ice88 wrote:I can pull one off a spare loom I have lying around?

Thanks heaps Ice but I wouldn't want you to bother... I've a feeling I actually might have another one buried in my parts bin somewhere with another harness, but I haven't been bothered fishing it out yet!! I do appreciate the offer though.

:wink:

sailaholic · Postby **sailaholic** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:52 pm

Just get a ms3 pro and be done with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:03 am

sailaholic wrote:Just get a ms3 pro and be done with it.

In time... in time...
We're going to give this MS2 box a bit of a cattle prod over the next few weeks and see if there is anything meaningful we can extract from it idle-wise... But if it doesn't cooperate, then yep... MS3 here we come.

Ironically, the car is actually driving really really nicely at the moment. The tune is far from perfect - its typically still fairly rich and spark timing is still tame - but its generally pretty great to drive. Tip in is good and driveable, as is the map in general... and at WOT it lets the monster out... :evil:

Kind of a bit itchy about getting it on a track...

gslender · Postby **gslender** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:41 pm

I got a reply from Reverant and he indicates that you're fine to upgrade to the latest 3.4 firmware. So if you feel brave, give that a go and see if the new firmware and associated docs gets you further towards a more stable idle. Follow the steps I outlined in the prior post and see how far you get. Without doubt, when we catch up I'm sure we can get the car running heaps better than it is now and should get the idle working pretty close to stock with the AC and other idle dips smoothed away.

G

ndragun · Postby **ndragun** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:05 am

Couple of 'highly entertaining' start-up videos - try to stay awake;

No throttle

1-2% throttle

So just shows the difference between starting up with no throttle and starting up with a tiny tickle of throttle that the IAC valve should do for me. No throttle startup the car will reluctantly come to life and then creep up onto its idle, whereas with a bit of throttle opening it will start quickly, and then settle back down onto idle quickly. The no throttle startup is actually not usually as quick as that. It takes a good few cranks normally, if at all. Its a warm startup so that helps.

Also had a play with ITB mode tuning the MS2 over the weekend. Have roughed in a fuel map, and generally its coming along reasonably well. Much more stable AFR particularly at low rpm/higher loads, much more responsive down low on the road, and is passing the driveway test with flying colours compared to alpha-n.