Operation TLC

[ndragun]

I plan on doing points 1, 2 & 3 myself.
Are you running itb's or have I confused you with someone else?

Yep - I'm running ITBs

[mrpham]

Car was idling well for me, setting the acceleration enrichment is one of the things I haven't sorted out yet.

[Ice88]

1. My setup has ITB's and a decent cam duration. No idle air and no problems on starting. It is very easy to start, in neutral, foot flat turn key and it starts (sometimes needs a second or third attempt). Go for a lithium battery save weight and get more omph for starting.

2. I have 2 X SPAL fans and no issue with idle load when they kick in.

3. No air con either.

I have no idle issues with my build

Adaptronics cut fuel when you got WOT. So if you were to part throttle, itd keep pumping in fuel as per the table your using for tuning. Its quite possible that haltech do this as well Magpie.

Sorry to hear you are having idle issues. Will happily take that MS2 off you and save it from the bin

Have not actually messed with the additional idle functions but an autotune cleaned up my idle and my car is currently running very well without any additional adjustments.

Will play a bit more when I can and update you if I find anything useful

Yea its a bit frustrating... At fixed idle now, its actually behaving relatively well. Nice and stable around 800ish rpm. I've given it a bit of advance and its a touch rich at idle, and it does fine.
But the problems I ultimately want to solve are;

1. I want to use the idle valve to give it a tiny bit of air during cranking rather than having to just lightly open the throttles. Currently it can occasionally take a few goes to get it started. With the aggressive cams and too much air (i.e. opening the throttles too much) the starter motor can struggle to turn it over. I want to be able to start it without any throttle input.

2. I have a SPAL fan (bloody noisy it is too!) that uses a lot of juice when it turns on, and drops the idle down just below 800rpm and starts to get a bit shuddery.

3. I want my A/C back!

I could just jack up the idle using the idle screws... but that would be admitting defeat.

Are you using purely map or are you using a hybrid mode, so tps x map? If the latter then you can try resolve the issue using the cranking and post cranking enrichment. The adaptronics have a setting where you can apply x amount of extra fuel for y time period after cranking to help with establishing an idle.

First, lets see if you cant get the valve working. The Ford valve you had, you ran 1 side to 12 volt and then the other to the MS2 right? Did you set the base value? The ford valve and the mazda valve actually operate the same from memory.

The Mazda and ford idle control valves have this weird setup where by if you dont drive the valve at all it operates at about half flow. Meaning that you need to set a mid way point in the software for the valve so that the ecu knows to power it IIRC closed is about 60-65% duty cycle.

Also remember lower frequencies give you better control, in some cases i recall the mx5 needing up 500hz to control the valve effectively.

Which MS2 do you have btw? Can you post a screenshot of your idle control window please?

[ndragun]

Let me qualify first - my 'issues' wrt idle are not really issues at all - I've probably overstated them. I'm just talking about setting something up that I can fine-tune. For an out-and-out track car, this would be a complete waste of time - you wouldn't bother. But everyone knows how to build an ITB'd track car... This is just an exercise in refinement really... just for my own (some might say OCD) interest.

The car is by no means difficult to start, I just want to fine-tune it. I'm not sure if by "foot flat" Magpie is saying 100% throttle... if that's the case then holy sh!t. I don't want to have to be full throttle to start the car. I want to be able to start the car, first turn of the key, no throttle at all.

At the moment, I can rest my foot on the throttle to give just the tiniest tickle of throttle opening, and it'll start first kick. I just want to use the idle valve to do that for me and ramp the RPM down immediately after start... Just like the damn TunerStudio window says it should be able to... MS claims to be able to do this stuff...

Are you using purely map or are you using a hybrid mode, so tps x map? If the latter then you can try resolve the issue using the cranking and post cranking enrichment. The adaptronics have a setting where you can apply x amount of extra fuel for y time period after cranking to help with establishing an idle.

I'm using purely TPS at the moment - alpha-n. I want to get away from that though because of the problems with low-throttle inputs and ITBs. So it'll be megasquirts "ITB mode" - which is effectively a hybrid mode.

First, lets see if you cant get the valve working. The Ford valve you had, you ran 1 side to 12 volt and then the other to the MS2 right? Did you set the base value? The ford valve and the mazda valve actually operate the same from memory.

The Mazda and ford idle control valves have this weird setup where by if you dont drive the valve at all it operates at about half flow. Meaning that you need to set a mid way point in the software for the valve so that the ecu knows to power it IIRC closed is about 60-65% duty cycle.

Also remember lower frequencies give you better control, in some cases i recall the mx5 needing up 500hz to control the valve effectively.

Yes - same with both valves - 1 side to 12v and the other to the ECU.
From what I've now experienced, it looks like only the Ford valve defaults to half open when it isn't dríven. The Mazda valve defaults shut - which is preferable. There were also other little details like the plug faced the wrong way and hit the filter back plate, the Ford valves are 'vented' as well... I believe the Mazda valve operates at a high frequency, and I'd read here and there that the Ford valves can operate OK at as low as 100Hz. I've got the Mazda valve set at 480Hz - which is the highest I have available in the frequency window...

Which MS2 do you have btw? Can you post a screenshot of your idle control window please?

I have an MSLabs "Basic MS2". The fact that changing idle settings cause the tacho to go haywire is a big red flag for me that something really flaky is going on in that little black box...

[ndragun]

Car was idling well for me, setting the acceleration enrichment is one of the things I haven't sorted out yet.

Mine was pretty undriveable without getting tip-in somewhere close to reasonable. I've got a pretty demanding driveway test to pass though, so if I can't get it up my driveway and in the carport, which is pretty steep incline with a last minute right angle at the top, then its considered undriveable.

What I've got now is far from perfect - I still get pretty big AFR fluctuations when blipping the throttle, but it doesn't bog down or hesitate, and it gets off the line fairly well.

[Magpie]

To qualify my start, yes it is foot down 100% as you turn the key and the car catches you take the foot off also foot is off the clutch and car in neutral (of course).

For the record mine is tuned from TPS.

[ndragun]

To qualify my start, yes it is foot down 100% as you turn the key and the car catches you take the foot off also foot is off the clutch and car in neutral (of course).

For the record mine is tuned from TPS.

Crikey... so like Ice88 said, you're probably in a flood clear situation there Magpie - with no fuel going in to the engine on cranking. So its probably starting purely on the residual fuel in the manifold? Megasquirt is basically the same - you can set the TPS% above which no fuel goes into the engine on cranking. You use that to clear the engine if it gets flooded.

[Magpie]

I'll look at the PS1000 settings tonight. I know nothing about this area and all I do in the ECU is get sensors configured, I leave the tuning to the experts.

It took 3 attempts to start this morning, only crank for a few seconds each time, the lithium battery seems to have helped with starting. Another observation is it starts faster on E85 than 98, however it is about E60 at the moment (blended fuel). It does need a bit of time to warm up and you just can't jump in start/drive it needs a few minutes to settle. Plus the car is only gently dríven till the oil gets over 60 deg.

Looking forward to seeing your end result. I'm sure I have a Jenvey idle air control valve at home somewhere, it was purchased but never used in the build. If I can find it I will let you know and you could test to see if it works. I have the idle air distribution block etc.

[gslender]

This is why MegaSquirt gets a bad name. In efforts to provide ultimate flexibility in becomes too confusing for the avg Joe and they abandon without fully understanding what they've got in front of them.

The ECU being used here is a backyard assembled DIYPNP based on a MS2 which is running beta firmware - the technology is 5 years old and was never expected to last as long as it has and support modern engines with all the inputs/outputs and features. In saying that, when configured correctly and wired up to work, it will do exactly what you are trying to do, but it will require some investment in time/effort to make work.

The MSPnPPro is the close equivalent to a current model Adaptronic or Haltech - http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... p-600.html

They have the same features, input/output support and capabilities. If you know what you are doing, you'll find the MS3 and tuning software much better than what you get from Adaptronic or Haltech. Yes that's my opinion but I've seen and played with all three and when compared and used correctly, I still state the MS3 is a heaps better overall ECU for the $$$ and if you are willing to do a bit of wiring/soldering, you can buy a cheaper MS3 Pro Module and drop it into the stock ECU case and make it a stealthy OEM looking ECU installation. This is no more complex than building an engine or bolting on ITBs and making all that work. If you can tackle and engine build, then you can solder a bunch of wires in a case etc - you just have to take your time and not rush anything. No different to me complaining that my CAMs just didn't drop in and work (and that I had to buy lash caps, new springs, retainers etc and so on). Do it right, or just don't do it.

Anyway, back to the issues at hand....

Step 1) Contact the original assembler of the MS2 (Reverant) and ask him what is the latest non-beta firmware you can run using his mods - he is famous for making non-standard MS2 kits that improve idle and AC support, so if you get the right ECU firmware to support his add-on cards that are in that MS2 you've got, then you'll be fine. When you know the firmware you can rely more on the MS2 manuals for TunerStudio - http://www.msextra.com/manuals/ms2manuals/ if you're running some old version that's a beta, then well most of the settings are either wrong or not yet working. Seems fair to start with the right software on the ECU yeah?

Step 2) Getting Closed Loop idle to work takes time because you 1st have to know how much air/RPM the idle valve can add / remove. Do this by testing it with the engine hot, and again when cold and using the test mode, fully open and then fully close the valve using the step / idle % values and note the RPM in each case. At some point more duty % won't make any difference... ie more than 75% gives the same RPM as 100% so you make a note that 75% when Hot = 1400 RPM. You ideally want the idle screw to keep the engine just a touch below the desired idle speed. e.g. if you are targeting 900RPM then make it sit at 875RPM when hot and idle valve closed. This means the idle valve does the least amount of work to raise the idle and means the idle stop isn't starving the engine before the idle valve can react.

Step 3) Now focus on Spark. What??? Why spark? Well, the engine needs to be advancing and retarding using the RPM idle target so that you're not fighting the spark tables with air. This realtime advance or retard will assist with the torque at idle to really smooth everything else out. With the idle valve off, you can have the idle screw set and the Idle Adaptive Advance Timing configured to really get the idle smooth. Remember to set your RPM idle target to match your Idle Stop Screw value (ie just below 900RPM) and then with this set correctly you can then move onto Idle Closed Loop and AC Idle Up.

Step 4) Now focus on Closed Loop Idle - the settings in the later firmware are lot more simpler than they used to be and easier to use and get working. The section on setting up and configuring Closed Loop Idle really needs to be read and read again to ensure you fully understand the settings. The most important part is setting the Idle Valve Closed Duty and Open Duty - they need to match the settings you got in Step 1. If you have these wrong then Close Loop won't work at all.

The two items I've marked in bold are in the docs and you should read more about them online etc. Understanding them is the key to getting it all working correctly.

The MS3 has even a larger number of features and capabilities to make idle and engine tuning work as or better than OEM. Again, it will require time as the system is very flexible and offers a lot more options than just "plug it in and work". So that advantages sometimes bites when you don't know what you're doing.

Hopefully this post will be taken in the spirit it was posted - which was to help and educate (and to avoid another group seeing issues with MegaSquirts and thinking they are all the same and to be avoided).

Good luck
G

[Magpie]

Thanks G!

[Ice88]

Saw your posts last night when I was heading to bed, but it was a little after 1 so wanted to let it stew in my brain overnight in case I thought of something. Late at night my posts tend to become streams on thought, which makes them not so coherent so there's that too.

Are you using purely map or are you using a hybrid mode, so tps x map? If the latter then you can try resolve the issue using the cranking and post cranking enrichment. The adaptronics have a setting where you can apply x amount of extra fuel for y time period after cranking to help with establishing an idle.

I'm using purely TPS at the moment - alpha-n. I want to get away from that though because of the problems with low-throttle inputs and ITBs. So it'll be megasquirts "ITB mode" - which is effectively a hybrid mode.

Moving to a hybrid mode will help for sure, as any changes in elevation will be to a degree counteracted

Part throttle is also hard to tune. Small degrees of throttle input account for a fair whack of air.

First, lets see if you cant get the valve working. The Ford valve you had, you ran 1 side to 12 volt and then the other to the MS2 right? Did you set the base value? The ford valve and the mazda valve actually operate the same from memory.

The Mazda and ford idle control valves have this weird setup where by if you dont drive the valve at all it operates at about half flow. Meaning that you need to set a mid way point in the software for the valve so that the ecu knows to power it IIRC closed is about 60-65% duty cycle.

Also remember lower frequencies give you better control, in some cases i recall the mx5 needing up 500hz to control the valve effectively.

Yes - same with both valves - 1 side to 12v and the other to the ECU.
From what I've now experienced, it looks like only the Ford valve defaults to half open when it isn't dríven. The Mazda valve defaults shut - which is preferable. There were also other little details like the plug faced the wrong way and hit the filter back plate, the Ford valves are 'vented' as well... I believe the Mazda valve operates at a high frequency, and I'd read here and there that the Ford valves can operate OK at as low as 100Hz. I've got the Mazda valve set at 480Hz - which is the highest I have available in the frequency window...

That value is fine. But there are downsides to having to drive it at such a high frequency

Regarding the valve though, that doesn't sound right to my knowledge it should be the other way round? One possible answer to widly fluctuating The MS2 only does software PWM so its possible that it doesn't have the processing or such to be able to effectively drive the valve.

Remember you have two issues here, your car has ITBs and it has cams. So while average joe with a mild set of cams and stock intake or joe blow with his blower and stock cams might be fine. People with mild cams or with stock cams will have a fairly stable and consistent idle, this means that that valve really only needs to move small amounts.

Essentially your base idle is set using the air bypass screw with idle up effort for things such as air con etc being controlled by the iac. In John's case he doesn't from memory have power steering or aircon so a fixed idle value works, he doesn't have anything to idle up for He also has a toyota which utilise a 3 wire system, 1 is 12volts, 1 pulls high and is set as a PWM output IIRC (this moves the valve open from memory) and one pulls low which closes the valve. It's a stepper valve. A lot of europeans use this as well.

I digress, in your case I'm assuming that with the cams you get fair erratic vacuum readings, which will make for fluctuating afrs. When the car starts to go lean the idle speed will increase, which will make the valve close (as it tries to get to your target idle speed). If it then hits a richer cell, the idle speed will then drop prompting the valve to reopen to correct. If this isn't done fast enough it essentially can exacerbate the problem. Also something to consider is your timing maps, if there jumping from one cell to another your idle won't be pretty either.

About the MS2s idle control, I know some people had to use in effect a daughter board (IIRC you work in IT so you might understand the term) to control idle, the output from the MS2 went to a daughter board which then controlled the idle. Can't remember why.

There are MS2 Extra/Enhanced ECUs which had more advanced idle control from memory. I did some research what feels like a long time ago but in reality is only about 18 months ago, the culmination of which led me to getting an adaptronic. The new MS3 looks the goods IMO though, not sure you could convince me to swap but for the money looks good

Which MS2 do you have btw? Can you post a screenshot of your idle control window please?

I have an MSLabs "Basic MS2". The fact that changing idle settings cause the tacho to go haywire is a big red flag for me that something really flaky is going on in that little black box...

Touched on this above. But taking the car to a tuner may end with a promising result. Something to consider before you, start considering ditching the MS2.

To qualify my start, yes it is foot down 100% as you turn the key and the car catches you take the foot off also foot is off the clutch and car in neutral (of course).

For the record mine is tuned from TPS.

Crikey... so like Ice88 said, you're probably in a flood clear situation there Magpie - with no fuel going in to the engine on cranking. So its probably starting purely on the residual fuel in the manifold? Megasquirt is basically the same - you can set the TPS% above which no fuel goes into the engine on cranking. You use that to clear the engine if it gets flooded.

Doesn't sound like its enabled

Which is fine, the process seems to work flawlessly. Just some times handy on cars which have erratic starting procedures (i.e. won't start and then start to get borderline flooded).

[ndragun]

This is why MegaSquirt gets a bad name. In efforts to provide ultimate flexibility in becomes too confusing for the avg Joe and they abandon without fully understanding what they've got in front of them.

That gives ME a bad name. It's not through lack of trying to understand what I have in front of me. But I'm literally in a situation where the only person that can help, is the guy who built it since its his firmware - and to date he hasn't responded to me. I've got nowhere else to go. To be fair, my latest question is only a day old, so lets give it some time. But I have asked 2 other questions dating back 6-8 months that were ignored, so its difficult to be confident.

At least a page listing the firmware revisions if there are any... Literally all I have is a link to the firmware I have (https://www.mslabs.gr/Basic_MS2_332b6.zip). So my only option at this point is to randomly try different revision numbers in the URL and see if I get anything other than a 404... No luck yet! I've tried!!

Aaaaaanyway.

I might try and get a few vids of start-up.... idle... and the wacky tacho needle phenomenon. At least then it explains my position. To re-iterate - I have idle that is fine, and a car that starts with very little effort. I'm just fine-tuning and don't want to admit defeat on an automated idle control mechanism (just yet).

[gslender]

That gives ME a bad name. It's not through lack of trying to understand what I have in front of me. But I'm literally in a situation where the only person that can help, is the guy who built it since its his firmware - and to date he hasn't responded to me. I've got nowhere else to go.

Yeah that sux, but I guess you bought it 2nd hand and didn't realise all this when you bought it????

I'm just trying to correct the injustice that is stated about MegaSquirt ECUs - they are good kit but sometimes the DIY stuff gets in the way.

Let me see if I can reach him.... Reverant is normally pretty good.

G

[ndragun]

Yeah that sux, but I guess you bought it 2nd hand and didn't realise all this when you bought it????
G

No - it was built specially when I ordered the ITB kit from Maxime at rev9. I listed exactly what I needed from it, and it was built specifically for my setup. Admittedly I should have spent more time beforehand investigating what ecu I was getting, and it probably wouldn't have taken long for me to figure out I wanted an MS3 instead! It still more than likely would have come from mslabs, purely because Maxime sells it all as a package, and that's what I went for.

Anyway like I said - let's give him a chance first. I'm not bashing anyone. Ultimately I WANT to use megasquirt, since I like the DIY aspect, and this is fundamentally a DIY project. But I don't want to be hitting brick walls like this.

I had always intended to move to MS3 eventually... looks like it could well be sooner rather than later ;)

[Ice88]

Yeah that sux, but I guess you bought it 2nd hand and didn't realise all this when you bought it????
G

No - it was built specially when I ordered the ITB kit from Maxime at rev9. I listed exactly what I needed from it, and it was built specifically for my setup. Admittedly I should have spent more time beforehand investigating what ecu I was getting, and it probably wouldn't have taken long for me to figure out I wanted an MS3 instead! It still more than likely would have come from mslabs, purely because Maxime sells it all as a package, and that's what I went for.

Anyway like I said - let's give him a chance first. I'm not bashing anyone. Ultimately I WANT to use megasquirt, since I like the DIY aspect, and this is fundamentally a DIY project. But I don't want to be hitting brick walls like this.

I had always intended to move to MS3 eventually... looks like it could well be sooner rather than later ;)

This may help you then:
https://www.mslabs.gr/mslc.html