NA8A Lifter Issues

[rascal]

people have said its best to switch to solids and also mentioned in here, but does that mean a new set of cams as mine currently in the car are done on the original NA8 ones?

I think solids would fix the issue of the lifters - but hopefully I don't need new cams for it.

Yes, you need different cams when moving from HLAs to solids, as the cam profiles need to be different to suit. Solids can handle a sharper ramp, HLAs cant.

[evil_weevil]

Ah darn it!!

Otherwise other option is replace lifters every now and then! Not cost effective haha
Or just put ear plugs in and if I can't hear it it's not there haha

[colster3]

Ah darn it!!

Otherwise other option is replace lifters every now and then! Not cost effective haha
Or just put ear plugs in and if I can't hear it it's not there haha

Evil, how about some Maruha cams with shim under buckets!!!

[evil_weevil]

Interested Col!
What ya got for me??

[project.r.racing]

people have said its best to switch to solids and also mentioned in here, but does that mean a new set of cams as mine currently in the car are done on the original NA8 ones?

I think solids would fix the issue of the lifters - but hopefully I don't need new cams for it.

Yes, you need different cams when moving from HLAs to solids, as the cam profiles need to be different to suit. Solids can handle a sharper ramp, HLAs cant.

but if he has camshafts suit to hlas, then the sharper ramps wont be present.

the lifters need to suit the camshaft profiles, not the other way around as you stated.

[evil_weevil]

people have said its best to switch to solids and also mentioned in here, but does that mean a new set of cams as mine currently in the car are done on the original NA8 ones?

I think solids would fix the issue of the lifters - but hopefully I don't need new cams for it.

Yes, you need different cams when moving from HLAs to solids, as the cam profiles need to be different to suit. Solids can handle a sharper ramp, HLAs cant.

but if he has camshafts suit to hlas, then the sharper ramps wont be present.

the lifters need to suit the camshaft profiles, not the other way around as you stated.

So...I should contact cam tech to see what hla's would be best for my cams?

[zossy1]

There are other options -

As has already been said, HLAs can be converted to solid lifters. There is actually another thread on here from a few years back that discusses this. See this link for more info on the process:

http://fordlaser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44633

Converted HLAs like this work fine with aggressive cams.

Nobody has mentioned the NB solid lifter swap option.. Shim Over bucket lifters are fine to around 7500rpm, brave folks will push them a little further even than that. They can be had for $50 per set second hand and shims are fairly easy to source. Again though, not really recommended for really aggressive ramp cams.

Any solid lifter swap will also require solid lifter collets. Factor this into the equation also.

[tbro]

Have a read:
"Noisy Doesn’t Always Mean Defective

Hydraulic valve lifters are probably the most precision-machined part inside any engine. It does not take much to cause one to operate incorrectly. We’re not referring to lifter failure due to metal-to-metal contact with the camshaft here. In this case we’re talking about lifter noise and/or a lifter that does not hold oil pressure and is unable to carry the pushrod properly through the full rotation around the cam lobe.

Noise from the lifter or valve train can come from something as simple as low oil level in the engine. Momentary lifter noise when an engine is started up is normal operation if the noise goes away in a few seconds. Oil drains from some of the lifters while the engine is not running. If the noise persists, oil level may be low in the engine allowing the oil pump to push air into the oil galleys and into the lifters.

An overfilled crankcase can also cause noise. The crankshaft counterweights can churn the oil into foam. When foam is pumped into a lifter it will be noisy. A damaged oil pan, or a loose or cocked pickup screen can also cause an oil pump to push air to the lifters. Noisy operation at higher engine speed and little or no noise at low speed can be a sign of air in a lifter.

A lifter that is noisy at idle to 1500 rpm may be caused by worn valvetrain. Check for worn or scuffed valve tip or rocker arm face, excessive valve stem to guide clearance, excessive valve seat or valve face runout, or a valve spring that is out of square. A valve spring damper clicking on a rotator can cause a similar noise. Worn pushrod tips or rocker ball seats can cause a continuous noise no matter what the rpm. This is especially common on roller lifter engines where the pushrod never spins, since the lifters are not rotating.

An intermittent noise that goes away with increased engine speed is usually caused by dirt. This may be due to poor maintenance or from a newly rebuilt engine that was not cleaned properly before reassembly.

There can be such a thing as a defective lifter, but there are several conditions that can lead to lifter noise and these should be checked before we just throw another set of lifters at any noise problem.

Engine Pro Tech Committee with thanks to Federal-Mogul Corp."

From one of the Engineering mags I get.

T

[manga_blue]

Interesting, tbro.

I've always battled with lifter noise during track sessions. I make most power in the first lap or two then power reduces after that as the thrashing noise from the engine increases. I've always assumed that was from progressive lifter failure as they became starved for oil through not being able to recharge fast enough at sustained speeds over 7000rpm. My car is redlined at 7600 and I usually run it up to 7500. Chamfering the lifter oil feed holes and notching them up a bit from the original location has helped but I've never fully overcome the problem.

It had never occurred to me that oil foaming could be a factor. Mine is a standard NA8 sump, pump, pickup, etc with no extra baffles or anything like that. I installed it myself and I made bloody sure it was fault free and fitted without leaks, etc. The oil fill quantity checks out perfectly on an OEM dipstick, so I'm positive the fill level is right.

Can anyone say that oil foaming occurs in a properly built standard NA8 engine? ... Or any other B6 or BP engine for that matter?

Edit: also anal about oil gallery cleanliness in the build and oil cleanliness in refills.

[project.r.racing]

not to be rude. but you are dealing with parts that are well worn and sometime well past there use by dates. sure mazda said these engine can be pushed to 7600. but that was 1990. fiction has not need kind to these engines in the past 25 years. the gear in the oil pump aren't as close as they once were. the pistons and inner shafts in the HLAs are worn. don't expect top performance in these matters unless you have done rebuild to return these tolerances back to original specs.

[manga_blue]

p.r.r I'm using new OEM HLAs

Also young head with no visible bore wear in the hla sockets, new oil pump, etc, etc. it's virtually a blueprinted motor.

[madjak]

Manga_blue, I dont think it's the oil pump that causes the foaming but its the oem oil pressure regulator which can't deal with the revs and chatters. My BP engine has a Peterson external oil pressure regulator with stock oil pump and it revs through to 8300 without any issues in the oil supply (That I'm aware of anyway).

[tbro]

more stuff on lifters,cams, and MB's favourite subject valve springs..................

http://www.engineprofessional.com/EPQ2- ... html#p=100


T

[tbro]

It had never occurred to me that oil foaming could be a factor. Mine is a standard NA8 sump, pump, pickup, etc with no extra baffles or anything like that. I installed it myself and I made bloody sure it was fault free and fitted without leaks, etc. The oil fill quantity checks out perfectly on an OEM dipstick, so I'm positive the fill level is right.

Can anyone say that oil foaming occurs in a properly built standard NA8 engine? ... Or any other B6 or BP engine for that matter?

Edit: also anal about oil gallery cleanliness in the build and oil cleanliness in refills.

oil foaming is usually caused by air introduced into the oil system"air leaks in pickup " oil cavation (spelling) types of oil (low in silicion, silicon reduces foaming)
overfilling of sump, cavation of oil pump due to design, oil starvation common in BP race engines re: dry sumping,vaccuming, scrappers or extra baffles.

I'm not going to get into any blues regarding oils for these motors, but consider the following, 237 degrees celcius at which stage the sensor melted, pistons, bearings, cams and crankshaft all servived, no galling, no pick up on anything. Everything was stuffed but the oil, the most important part of any engine survived.

My rep from Pacific Petrolium is a engineer not a salesman and so was the rep before him, both worked at Mobil and have raced in production series.
Their recommendation for Mazda BP or B6 motors, not to use synthetic oils. These are old designs from the 60/70s and modern high zinc performance oils are all that is needed to protect these motors.

So what can we do other than redesigning the whole motor or fitting dry sumps etc.
Use good oil, high in zinc and having silicon antifoaming additives.
Keep the oil cool on track.
Don't overfill it, measure the amount 3.8Lts and install and check dipstick level.
try not to over rev the motor or at least try and keep it under the red as much as you can.

Remember these aren't cosworth engines, these are motors designed for a 323/ Laser hatch/sedan, not designed to rev for 1 hour at 8000 rpm and come back the next day for more of the same, these are mass produced family car engines that date back to the 60/70s????.The fact that we can race them is testament to the designers abilities


Thats my 2c worth!!
T

[forcedfive]

I have some nb8a lifters and cams if you decide you are after some. Out of an engine with under 70 000km.