Top Gear's ND review

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hks_kansei
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby hks_kansei » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:22 pm

Nothing to say the OP isn't full of sh*t, but it seems to match my other research, and personal expererience so It seems accurate enough.

basically, 626 or 929 is right, since they were the same.


http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=2735

3. Smooth Case. These were Mazda’s mainstay from the late 1970s into the mid eighties, and so were fitted to RWD 323s, RWD 626s, 929Ls, HB (“Cosmo”) 929s, 1st Generation RX-7s, 12A Turbos, non-turbo Series 4 RX-7s, and many vans and utes.

They can be identified obviously by their smooth case, and by their integral bell-housing. Some later cars (most commonly FE powered 929s) have a circumferential external rib around the bell-housing.

*323 boxes have a smaller diameter input shaft compared to others, which all have the common 22-spline input shaft. This version is distinctive due to its smaller bell-housing which has a raised section with a flat top, where it bolts to the motor. These are available in both 4 and 5-speed versions. Notably the cases are different (due to the extra length required for the 5th gear), making the 5-speed a difficult fit into a factory fitted 4-speed 323. 808s have more mounting points, and so are a much easier fit. For both cars, factory auto version will easily accommodate the 5-speed gearbox.
*The S1 RX-7 gearbox is a direct swap for the earlier RX-4 / RX-5 gearbox, and all mounting points, shifter position etc are the same. The rotary gearboxes can be identified by having a hole for the starter motor to be fitted to (piston motors have the starter motor fitted to the engine). All smooth case rotary gearboxes are 5-speed.
*S2, S3, S4 RX-7s have a remote shifter that places the shift lever 100mm further back compared to the S1 RX-7 gearbox. These are a substantial update over the S1 boxes and are much stronger, although not indestructible.
* The RWD 626 boxes and the later MA-powered 929 boxes are identical to each other. These have the best ratios of any Mazda production gearbox. They can be identified by the very short distance from the motor to the gear lever – it is 100mm shorter than the S1 RX-7 gearbox, making it 200mm shorter than the S2 and later RX-7 boxes. Available in both 4 and 5-speed versions.
*The FE Smooth Case gearbox, as fitted to post 1983 929s is identified by its larger bell-housing with a raised flat top section where it bolts to the motor. Apparently these gearboxes received the same improvements as the S2 and later RX-7 gearboxes. 5-speed only
*The van boxes are column shift, and generally have appalling ratios for road car use. They have bell-housings the same as the car boxes (ie, to suit TC,UC, D5, NA, VC, MA, and FE motors).
*The S3 and S4 NA boxes also have a unique output shaft size, which is larger than the earlier gearobxes.

The front case/bell-housings are interchangeable between all gearboxes. It is possible to put a RX-7 front case onto a 626 gearbox to make it fit a rotary motor, or a FE case onto an RX-7 gearbox if a replacement FE gearbox was not available. The 323 gearbox is the exception to this, as it incredibly has a slightly different shape, so none of the bolts line up if you attempt to bolt a 323 bell-housing onto a gearbox from a larger car. It would also require a custom clutch plate (due to its smaller input shaft, and smaller diameter shaft). The 323 also appears to have a smaller bearing in the front case.
The extension housings are also interchangeable, meaning that on any gearbox, you have the choice of four different shifter positions (626, S1, S2 or S4 NA).

The Smooth case gearboxes are generally weak. The S1 RX-7 box in particular has a (well deserved) reputation for breaking with very little provocation. Breaking input shafts, output shafts, stripping teeth off gears, breaking cases and jamming in gear are all common. The piston gearboxes are no stronger, but are generally OK as they rarely have to withstand as much power as the rotary gearboxes. Interestingly, the ‘works’ racing gearboxes have much thicker cases, suggesting that much of the strength issue is due to a weak, flexible casing.



****Update. The 5-speed MX-5 gearboxes are smooth-case type gearboxes. Ratios are similar to both S1 and S2 RX-7, without being the same as either . They also have the big power-train girdle, like a S6 RX-7, and are therefore difficult to mount into earlier cars.
The 6-speed MX-5 gearboxes are an Aisin manufactured gearbox, which is the same gearbox as fitted to the Lexus IS200, S15 200SX, and the new RX-8. I do not yet have any info on ratios, mountings or input/output shafts.
1999 Mazda MX5 - 1989 Honda CT110 (for sale) - 1994 Mazda 626 wagon (GF's)

speed
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby speed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:46 pm

hks_kansei wrote:
sailaholic wrote:There you go, wonder if what I read was wrong, or if the same box was used it both? I understand it's also very similar to the rx7 box.


And yeah, the early 626 (CB series) shared bits with the SA RX7, and since the HD (I think that was the code?) 929 was available in Japan with a rotary it probably shared a lot too.


Mx5 was released before the FD rx7.

Sa22 (series 1, 2 and 3) although 5 speed has a much longer throw then mx5. Will look under both cars to confirm but I suspect different box.
Same goes for FC rx7 but I can check that too over the weekend.

My S3 rx7's has FC engine/driveline and can handle 350hp atw no probs. be surprised if the mx5 box can do the same but would be awesome if that was the case :)


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speed
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby speed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:53 pm

Oops, just re read the long quote.
Same same but not same same


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JBT
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby JBT » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:02 pm

hks_kansei wrote:The 929 stayed RWD for it's life, but as far as I know it was only Auto (who knows about Japan though)

The company I worked for in the Middle East in the early 90s had HC 929s. All ours had manual trannies.

One of many excerpts regarding the transmission from this book written by those who built the MX-5: http://www.amazon.com/Mazda-Miata-Roadster-Toshihiko-Hirai/dp/1904788297
Since the transmission came from the Mazda 929 (a luxury sedan), we had to give it new, more sporting gear ratios, as well as create a nice shift feel.
In order to achieve the sports car shift feel, the weight of the flywheel and synchronizer rings were reduced to enhance the direct feeling of the transmission, and the shift gear gate was extended to fall directly under the driver's hand.
Image

speed
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby speed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:44 pm

The Green Goblin wrote:looks like someone drove it into the back of another car, the way the bonnet & front quarter section flares are shaped..


Im with you on this.



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greenltd
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby greenltd » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:56 pm

If i had the cash, I'd be buying one. Although i don't yet love the looks i think time and seeing it in the flesh will fix that. If not, i can't see the outside when driving it, so all would be good

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ManiacLachy
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Re: Top Gear's ND review

Postby ManiacLachy » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:24 am

I didn't read this thread when it first posted because I was a little behind in my TopGear viewing, and when I caught up I'd forgotten about this thread :roll:

But anyway ...

Lokiel wrote:Hamster also commented that the NA's 5-speed gearbox is one of the 5 best in the past 25 years.
While some of us complain about the new car's performance being similar, we should also lament the fact that none of the subsequent Aisin 6-speed gearboxes are even close to the NA's 25 year old 5-speed gearbox.


Yeah, he mentioned how great the old box was, then didn't make any sort of comparison to the new one, which seems like an omission to me. I mean, if you singled something out that was great before, wouldn't you reflect on how they've improved it (or otherwise) in the new?

In general I didn't buy his enthusiasm for the ND. I beleived him when he said he loved the NA, but with the ND he seemed forced, like he was just saying what was expected and not giving his true opinion.

I hope the ND sells well for Mazda, but I'm worried it'll disapoint the masses. And it's not a car that I'll ever be considering. Also, I'm fed up with Mazda's trickle feed of information on the bloody thing.


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