COPs, Oil Coolers, Coolant re-route etc..

[Paulus]

A dyno result is only helpful if it's accurate. What Dann is saying is either your injectors aren't flowing the rated 310 cc OR you aren't making that much power. A or b no option C.


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“sailaholic”, I trust you have no other coefficients to your witty name.. but you should know you sparked my spark plug.. retarded my timing and got my EGTs all high and backfirey.

What’s the point of this thread? You’ve got some idiot newbie here (never presumed otherwise) asking some dumb questions- has he done his research? Is he an idiot? Does someone need get in the idiom ‘it’s not physically possible’? Is he one of the legions of people that need to be slapped down and told that the $ is the only way?

Answer is simple: no.

I’m just trying to cheap out. I can’t justify it. I bought it for 900 quid. I’m already being hassled to go to the freedom sale to buy a chair we don’t need. I have to negotiate for garage time and am considering lying to her about going to the dyno.

Let me fail, let me be an example to tell others when I’m too geriatric to use a keyboard to defend myself.. let me live reactively, not proactively. I’ve made some attempt to monitor temps- I listen for boiling water.

Yep, that’s what I’m like. In all seriousness I know what I’m seeing in a gauge.

I’ve been to a dyno twice. That’s it, and all I can do is look at the white of the eye of the tuner and him to tell me it’s accurate. Or is the tail wagging the dog with BHP figures I want?

I was sold ‘315cc’ injectors – like you say in condescending language, it’s either those that are better or the Kws are actually the same as a Bunnings light bulb- which I’m sure is brighter than my dim ability to write a humours reply.

You just saw 12.5PSI logged, unless there’s some cfm problem or I accidently left a tin of cat food in the pipes it is highly likely my injectors were wrongly spec’d.

I was just talking with my company’s GC today that inquisitive objective questioning shouldn’t be confused with null hypothesis assertion, heuristic and ignorance.

Is Trent @ mercury motorsport an OK dyno for you? Should I even go?

I just want to feel like my penis is bigger than a 12 year old boy trying to Clingfilm an earthworm when excitement arises putting my foot down and cat food splurging out my $200 exhaust. I am happy with the assumption that it’s above 200 ponies so I can die happy. Even if it’s at the fly wheel or actually imaginary.

Hopefully I can meet you enthusiasts in QLD, we can laugh about that time I wired my megasquirt 12v to the cooling fan circuit by mistake, the fact there is a large hole in the sill and that time I bought replacement doors in London only to discover my doors are the ‘wrong red’. Don’t take it all so seriously. This car was written off when I went to a cheese festival in Gloucestershire . I stopped caring after that.

[Magpie]

Let me get the issue straight here, you want max power for as cheap as possible? You care not for reliability or anything else?

Whilst the very young do not always do as they're told, Sailaholic knows his sh*t as does Dann and others trying to help. The internet is very easy to get things taken the wrong way as there is no facial expressions or body language to go along with the conversation, in addition it is a one way conversation and the only feedback you get is when a reply is posted.

Take the injectors out and have them serviced as well as benchmarked.

Have a look at the many internet pages that calc injector size like https://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php. Like anything having them work in the high end of their rated CC is not good so aim for about 70% duty cycle. As I have stated in my build 725 ID injectors were used, this calcs at about 35% duty cycle, however it will be going to E85 soon.

Therefore based on an estimate for E85 of 220 HP, BSFC 1.0, 80% duty cycle works out to about 725cc, surprise surprise the right size injectors...

[Paulus]

Mate, i tried to nip this in the bud:

At 90% duty cycle, 11.2 AFR and 4x 315cc injectors it not physically possible to support more than about 190hp at the ENGINE.

Dann

I get it, but it's happening. injectors must be modded or something odd with fuel pressure. take it offline. i'll keep monitoring duty

take it offline!! I do not need help with injectors. The datalog speaks for itself.

This thread is designed to demonstrate and disprove the need for so many of the traditional extras, subject to usage to help others who are building for street.

In my example, i've gone so far as is reasonably practicable without a cost prohibitive build. It is reliable and has the performance i enjoy for 5 years.

I thought i'd finally share my story, not looking to upset anyone.

[Magpie]

You started the thread with a question hence you got answers!

If you started with I have built a reliable turbo without COPS etc and explained your steps/logic/decisions then you are making a statement, not asking a question.

Ask a question get an answer, what else were we supposed to do? Say nothing?

This thread is designed to demonstrate and disprove the need for so many of the traditional extras (your words) however it is clear your injectors DEMONSTRATE you need help with the injectors.

How does your datalog support your statement/question? It does not help when in your own words " may revise that to 95 degrees!! haha. no calibration, just listening for boiling water and comparing sensor reading."

Each to their own I guess, good luck with your build and again look forward to seeing you at QR.

[Paulus]

lol. I think i'm quite infuriating with my casual language. boiling water is a very throwaway comment

I honestly do hope to meet others, a smile and a handshake await.

The datalog shows 12.5PSI with the injectors happily squirting enough pulsewidths to get 11.2 AFR. So in other words, the injectors are handling 12.5 psi. Like everyone has said, it doesn't compute.

I am running a risk on the cooling front, but injectors are fine. It'll be interesting to see how i go..

You'll see me in the pitlane with a steaming car i'm sure

[sailaholic]

Paulus, i appologise for having so throughly sparked your plug, as this was certainly not my intention. Though i'm not quite sure where you were going with the 'other coefficients' comment.

I took your comments that data logs don't lie and i'll geta dyno graph to prove my power (excuse me if i got it slightly incorrect paraphrasing) to mean that you were argueing aginst the possibility that something in your system was not as it appeared.

I made the comment about dyno accuracy as dynos, particuarly rolling road dynos are known to vary widely. Who's is accurate? I wouldn't have it clue, i'm not sure many would. Some would say it benifits the shop doing the tuning to have a dyno that errs high. As a tuning tool the accuracy dosn't really matter as much compared to the precision. For measuring an abosulte value before a lack of calibration makes everything somewhat vague.

I mention all of this because we have had people come to the forum before shouting along the line "see look you guys all suck, i made X power with just these few mods" and when people try to be helpful and point out that it's not possible they throw back "well it must be becuase i have the dyno plot to prove it"

As for the $$ arugment, you've got that one all wrong. I've been there trying to justify the price of a dyno tune to myself and others. Last night i found my muffler has reasonable size hole in it and got in trouble for getting home so late after doing a diff swap myself. But i've already spent the budget for the next few months so the hole in the muffler will just have to stay there for a while.

If someone can chime in and say hey, i found that X isnt required below Y power level with street driving. Great! That very helpful & useful information. But that information has to be accurte to be useful.

You mentioned "i don't need cops" dan says you get spark blow out after X psi of boost. You responded with ok, so tune to missfire and then back it down 0.5 a pound. Great idea if you just trying to get the best you can for a certain dollar amount. But some poeple don't want to live on the edge like that, they would rather pay more and have it "safer" or they are chasing a specific power goal and don't want to get to the dyno and have the tuner say "yeah it went really good but, geeze we had problem with spark blow out, i think we could have got another 50hp out of it with better ignition" suddenly that 100 odd dollars saved on COPS seems a waste agaisnt the extra dyno time.

I'm sure we could both go on, but i wanted to show i was trying to answer your posts as best i could, and did not mean to put you or your build method down nor cause offence.

A dyno result is only helpful if it's accurate. What Dann is saying is either your injectors aren't flowing the rated 310 cc OR you aren't making that much power. A or b no option C.


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“sailaholic”, I trust you have no other coefficients to your witty name.. but you should know you sparked my spark plug.. retarded my timing and got my EGTs all high and backfirey.

What’s the point of this thread? You’ve got some idiot newbie here (never presumed otherwise) asking some dumb questions- has he done his research? Is he an idiot? Does someone need get in the idiom ‘it’s not physically possible’? Is he one of the legions of people that need to be slapped down and told that the $ is the only way?

Answer is simple: no.

I’m just trying to cheap out. I can’t justify it. I bought it for 900 quid. I’m already being hassled to go to the freedom sale to buy a chair we don’t need. I have to negotiate for garage time and am considering lying to her about going to the dyno.

Let me fail, let me be an example to tell others when I’m too geriatric to use a keyboard to defend myself.. let me live reactively, not proactively. I’ve made some attempt to monitor temps- I listen for boiling water.

Yep, that’s what I’m like. In all seriousness I know what I’m seeing in a gauge.

I’ve been to a dyno twice. That’s it, and all I can do is look at the white of the eye of the tuner and him to tell me it’s accurate. Or is the tail wagging the dog with BHP figures I want?

I was sold ‘315cc’ injectors – like you say in condescending language, it’s either those that are better or the Kws are actually the same as a Bunnings light bulb- which I’m sure is brighter than my dim ability to write a humours reply.

You just saw 12.5PSI logged, unless there’s some cfm problem or I accidently left a tin of cat food in the pipes it is highly likely my injectors were wrongly spec’d.

I was just talking with my company’s GC today that inquisitive objective questioning shouldn’t be confused with null hypothesis assertion, heuristic and ignorance.

Is Trent @ mercury motorsport an OK dyno for you? Should I even go?

I just want to feel like my penis is bigger than a 12 year old boy trying to Clingfilm an earthworm when excitement arises putting my foot down and cat food splurging out my $200 exhaust. I am happy with the assumption that it’s above 200 ponies so I can die happy. Even if it’s at the fly wheel or actually imaginary.

Hopefully I can meet you enthusiasts in QLD, we can laugh about that time I wired my megasquirt 12v to the cooling fan circuit by mistake, the fact there is a large hole in the sill and that time I bought replacement doors in London only to discover my doors are the ‘wrong red’. Don’t take it all so seriously. This car was written off when I went to a cheese festival in Gloucestershire . I stopped caring after that.

[Paulus]

Thank you for that- and sorry for the inflammatory coefficient comment.

Mercury Motorsport gave me a 110rwkw when I was supercharged, which was insanely different to the "200bhp" I got when I dynod it in the uk. I've put a bit of the lost power down to an outlet leak, but most of it down to the dyno

You should hit up mercury Motorsport- they're seriously good, he regularly competes in WTAC and you should check out his nitto build. I was embarrassed to be there.

I've figured based on my logs I can only go to 13.5PSI before duty becomes 100%.. Meaning I won't be able to tune to redline. But that's what 230bhp based on other td05 builds? Maybe I should go cops and injectors before going to the dyno, but for a laugh maybe I wont to see what happens and find what the limits are.

Good luck with your exhaust.. I just changed to an nb subframe and mine now fouls

[speed]

Paul, I suspect you also had an inlet leak. The gaskets between SC TB and also the inlet to the SC were stuffed.
Hoodedreeper has just made 127kw on a similar set up, however with rx8 injectors, bigger cooler and don't remember exhaust specs.
Saying that, 110 is heaps better then 60ishkw anyways


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[NitroDann]

Im going to sound arrogant with this statement to bear with me. I have literally converted dozens of MX5's from n/a, and am well known for my ability to find the weakest link, strengthen it, and gain very large performance improvements that the other components already supported.

XYZ psi is not an indication of power, boost pressure is an indication of restriction VS flow.

A straight forward example is Ausbouy's AVO turbocharged NA6, T28, 2.5" exhaust, 550cc injectors etc, on high boost (10 or 11psi was its max) it was about a carlength a gear quicker than PaulF's 10.5:1 intake exhaust portjob, stock everything else including ecu NA6.
We changed the ECU, the ignition, the injectors, the full exhaust, and the boost control method, swapped to E85 and tuned. It now makes 265rwhp, has been daily dríven a lot and raced 3 times, everything is good and safe, and the only way that could have been done was to understand the limits of components and choose the most cost effective weak links to fix.

Having been brought many cars which should perform but dont to fix, Im telling you that the right combination of parts is very important to performance and many have far less than they think they have. Furthermore the use of the car is a huge part of reliability, and again, one persons aggressive hard drive is another guys warm up on the way to the shops. A car that has everything right bar one or 2 parts, or poorly tuned might have 2/3rds of the performance it should have, and a driver might go as hard as he personally can and find his setup is reliable while another can take the same car and break 3 or 4 systems in 5 laps.

Im confident that with a full modification list and some photos I can tell you within 10hp how much power it COULD make with a good tune, and with a full parts list and photos I can confidently tell you what is likely to fail and under what circumstances with what driver.

I get guys bring a car down that they swear is bulletproof and take me for a drive in it just to show how much abuse it takes, are very excited by the drive, and literally drive softer than my mum. This isnt meant as an insult, everyone is different and its important to me that they are satisfied and they often are. But your crazy hard drive and some of my customers casual drive back from the shops with the kids MIGHT be the same thing.


Typically with an auto rad, 12psi on a T28 using a manual T piece boost control, intercooler, well flowing exhaust, and a competant tune with not many other mods the stock clutch would slip, and a very quick driver would have problems with brakes, water temperature, manifold and downpipe sealing/hardware and the clutch would slip.
The fact that yours doesnt and that you believe your injuectors to be 315cc leads me to believe that either

a) The car has 315cc's and is making a lot less power, torque and heat than your dyno sheet would suggest, possibly through exhaust or intake restriction or a very poor or 'safe' tune.

b) The car has different injectors or fuel pressure than you believe, makes the power the sheet says, and you drive a more sensibly than you realise.


Thats the dead straight honesty Id give you if you emailed me and asked what your options forward were.

Thanks,
Dann

[MLR]

Dyno = tuning tool.

Drag strip will tell you how much power you are really making, go to drags, do some runs, post up your best run and the correct weight of your car when you made the run.

This is pretty good Ive found
http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_horsepower ... d_time.php

[NitroDann]

Trap speed down the 1/4 doesnt lie.

Tshirt related.

[Paulus]

Haha – yes, I’ll use a dyno sheet as meerly a guide. Maybe bragging rights when the car is routinely called a ‘pos’.

So in the spirit of this thread, I’ve booked a dyno this week! And we will find out that I am actually only making 111rwkw.

I don’t think I have the reliability to run a ¼. Asking for an act of god for the clutch to survive.

Appreciate what you’re saying Dann, particularly with all your experience. There are at least two obvious weak links.. injectors and clutch. The latter being my biggest concern. Did I mention I bought it used?

I do drive it like a grandma when changing gear, sometimes I don’t bother using the clutch at all. I am not a die hard track guy, but it’s a bit of fun. stark difference in punishment compared to street.

[Paulus]

Dyno day tomorrow!

Bit of fun...who'd like to guess the power?

Full spec:
"315 cc injectors" from http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php? ... =59508&hl=
1.6 engine
stock 1.8 clutch
wideband
megasquirt 1 v3
Manual boost control. currently hitting 13PSI
Greddy td05-16g
full 2.5"exhaust (custom). 200 cell CAT.
stock ignitors with iridium plugs (last replaced in 2011)
auto rad
FMIC
Recirc BOV
gtx PCV
1 way idle valve

Poor qual pics - i've since removed the heatshield.. doing more harm than good

[sailaholic]

1 zillion killer wasps! Because hand built.


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[MLR]

Dyno day tomorrow!

I see you went with the HAI (hot air induction) modification.

That looks like it would do wonders for your air temps as it would be feeding directly from the radiator.

I got one of these and it works a treat, duct pulls air from inner guard.

> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291289657625

I made a $60 offer and they took it.

Better than the more expensive ones because it does the same job but you still have money for lots of beer, which is important....