2014 Modern Sports Cars Kumho Tyres Endurance Cup

[oztrackdays]

You need to encourage the innovative cars, you can peg them in any class you like, but excluding
minor engine swaps and other things like ITB's will just keep more cars in the shed, I think this breakaway
class will now spawn an even newer breakaway class for people that just want to go fast.

Having rules even tighter than CAMS in a grass roots scenario is just a bit daft really.

[evil_weevil]

Mine would be sports specification?
I suck at interpreting rules!!!

So...would there be discounts on tyres from the naming sponsor? Cause I need new tyres soon haha

[zossy1]

You need to encourage the innovative cars, you can peg them in any class you like, but excluding
minor engine swaps and other things like ITB's will just keep more cars in the shed, I think this breakaway
class will now spawn an even newer breakaway class for people that just want to go fast.

Having rules even tighter than CAMS in a grass roots scenario is just a bit daft really.

Other than the block restriction and the limitation on rim width, "Modified" is very similar to 2B CAMS rules. ITBs are permitted in modified. I'm not convinced that 1.2.1.3 would exclude JDM cars, and certainly not from Modified class.

2F cars are, I suppose, intended to go into "Sports" class. Showroom is intended for those unmodified cars that might want to come over from Supersprints.

I think the concept is great, but as with anything, it may take a little time to smooth out the bumps. Showroom is the entry level class, super cheap. Sport is a step up in mods, and modified is another step up. I have to say that I would have built a "showroom" or "sport" class car in a heartbeat if I had seen these rules a couple of months ago. As it is, I have now bought a car that really only fits in the Modified class but that's fine.

[Brian]

The issue with engine swaps and block substitution is not with the little swaps its the big swaps and big block substitutions that can occur. It is also not that innovative, I had a block substitution MX5 back in 2002.

The engine swap rules and block substitution rules create a avenue for significant power increase. An example would be the 3.9 litre 500 hp boxster/cayman or the 2.4 litre toyota engined lotus that would be a real concern and create a similar situation as has happened in Prodsports.

There is plenty of scope for modification of cars that will be plenty fast enough in this category, hopefully without causing the back end of the grid to be adversely impacted.

If you want to go real fast then there are other categories that already cater for really fast cars - Prodsports or sports sedans.

Cheers

Brian

[Deckspeed Racing]

You need to encourage the innovative cars, you can peg them in any class you like, but excluding
minor engine swaps and other things like ITB's will just keep more cars in the shed, I think this breakaway
class will now spawn an even newer breakaway class for people that just want to go fast.

Having rules even tighter than CAMS in a grass roots scenario is just a bit daft really.

Other than the block restriction and the limitation on rim width, "Modified" is very similar to 2B CAMS rules. ITBs are permitted in modified. I'm not convinced that 1.2.1.3 would exclude JDM cars, and certainly not from Modified class.

2F cars are, I suppose, intended to go into "Sports" class. Showroom is intended for those unmodified cars that might want to come over from Supersprints.

I think the concept is great, but as with anything, it may take a little time to smooth out the bumps. Showroom is the entry level class, super cheap. Sport is a step up in mods, and modified is another step up. I have to say that I would have built a "showroom" or "sport" class car in a heartbeat if I had seen these rules a couple of months ago. As it is, I have now bought a car that really only fits in the Modified class but that's fine.

When reading rules for building a race car you start with general requirements, thats why its at the begining. The car must meet the general requirements irrespective of whether or not it is in the modified class, they are "general" requirements as they apply to all classes. Therefore rule 1.2.1.3 will effectively rule out JDM NC MX5 due to the fact they have differences to an NC MX5 that was delivered to the Australian market, the rule reads pretty clear ,as delivered for sale in the australian market , irrespective of OEM or other availability. this clearly means other market availability.If you skip straight to modified class and modify out the differences, whats the point of having general requirements.

[Deckspeed Racing]

The issue with engine swaps and block substitution is not with the little swaps its the big swaps and big block substitutions that can occur. It is also not that innovative, I had a block substitution MX5 back in 2002.

The engine swap rules and block substitution rules create a avenue for significant power increase. An example would be the 3.9 litre 500 hp boxster/cayman or the 2.4 litre toyota engined lotus that would be a real concern and create a similar situation as has happened in Prodsports.

There is plenty of scope for modification of cars that will be plenty fast enough in this category, hopefully without causing the back end of the grid to be adversely impacted.

If you want to go real fast then there are other categories that already cater for really fast cars - Prodsports or sports sedans.

Cheers

Brian

Brian
A point well made on the porsche and lotus and I agree. As I'm not that familiar with these I maybe wrong but aren't these complete engine substitutions?
If block substitution was limited to the same family of engine so as to retain orginal cyl. head and auxiliary compentary without modifications to make them fit and engine must remain in orignal location without modification, wouldn't this limit it to minor substitutions? I know I come at this with a vested interest as I have done a few 2.5 litre NCs, in defence to this I come at it from a cost point of veiw, the most powerful car we have has a 2.0 litre engine that, aside from JDM point might be eligible, the main difference it cost close to 3 times as much to build, the 2.5 litre experiment was more a cost solution rather than a performance one.

Regards

Daniel

[greenMachine]

This discussion reminds me of the problem of squeezing the balloon - there is always a bit that gets away.

Block substitution may be a cheap way to get performance, but that only works when the 'big block' does not have as much money spent on it as the 'small block'. As soon as the big block gets the same level of development ($$$), the bar has been lifted for anyone (everyone) who is competing with big blocks. I have no view on the block issue, I can see the case for and against - I think the call comes down to the organisers' views on competitors/costs.

The other point I would like to make (and I have made it before) is that rule stability is very important - people need to know where their cars sit in respect to a series' regulations. If I am building a car, I need to know what the limits are so I don't over- or under-spend, or spend on things I shouldn't, or neglect things I could/should spend money on. If I have a car, I want to see where it fits and be confident that those rules will hold for the year.

Finally, organisers of a series should have a clear idea of who they are pitching to, and not try to be all things to all people.

I will follow this discussion with interest.

[toppertee]

^^^^^
Great post IMO
Very well put!

[Dweezle]

So happy there is now a 3 door hot hatch class.
There are so many available for such cheap prices that I believe this will help numbers at events greatly.

Now to start reading and see what the minimum I need to do to get my RS prepared!!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[mazmad]

I will be there for the enduro events, the last one was a heap of fun.

[MattR]

My 2 cents worth here as I am affected by the new rules.

When the series was first put together last year and the first race run, my S14 would have been eligible to run in both modern sports and prod sports giving me a greater choice of where and when to have a race, and also a variety of races and race types. The first draft of the rules as put out in mid 2013 were very much 2B and 2F, basically these cars in the correct spirit of Prod Sports, ie a production car.

Now with the rules as they have come out it looks like there is a bit of I want to play in my own sand pit, especially the rules that say Australian spec cars only, but left hookers in the same spec are OK. Is this to let a few german cars run that were bought in from off shore?? Sorry to sounds cynical but from an outsider that's what it looks like to me as my car is an Australian delivered car, but because of the way it is being built is now ineligible on my count 5 items, but will meet the spirit of the regulations because it is relatively cheap to get to the track, $15k with standard motor, and ad another $5-8k for a big motor. Part of the reason it is cheap is because of the aftermarket parts available that then rule it out.

Basically, my car will be illegible on the following as I read the rules, and would be happy to be corrected on these:

Weight - I am limited to a 12% weight reduction on a 1250kg car, which is 150kg, which is 1100kg, I am trying to get to around 1050kg, and pretty easy when air con, electrics, windows, full interior, and hanging panels are all changed.

Wheels - I am looking at running 18" slicks. I have a choice of second hand Porshe cup tyres, GT tyres, or now the new Achilles slick, as it is affordable. To make best use of the sizes available I am looking at using 10" rims to best fit the tyres. Under the 2B rules, this is fine as I am allowed 40" of total wheel width, under the Modern Sports rules i am allowed only 8" rims. The smallest rim I can really use is 9" so again, illegible

Engine Capacity - Building a motor to meet the prod sport rules means I have to make compromises with the SR20, the snail and inlet manifolds are restricted to the standard factory items in both categories, however to help alleviate that restriction, and because the bits are cheap, I am looking at increasing the bore by more than the allowable Modern sports limit, in fact all the blocks I have looked at that are cheap need to be bored by a fair way anyway. To make up for the fact that the standard turbo limits the power of the SR20 I am going down the path of as much torque as possible, to do this a stroker kit can be had for very cheap. In any case whatever my engine build ends up being it will fall foul of the regulation stating that capacity must be stock +2%.

Body work - as the rules state if it isn't said to be free you can't do it, so you are limited to the standard steel panels. I am using fibreglass/plastic and/or carbon fibre to all my hanging panels on the car to reduce weight, so that rules the car out.

Windows - again, no mention in the rules so it can't be done, but I have a full set of windows and a rear screen sitting in the garage ready to go in made out of 3mm and 4mm lexan to save weight, but not allowed as I read the rules.

Aero - A wing is allowed, but I am looking at using a spoiler similar to the bird bath type used by the Group C RX7's as I feel this will be of more benefit to me due to the shape of the car and cost. Again as there is no mention of a spoiler, then it can't be done.

I wish the organisers every success in this series, but I am a little disappointed that a car like mine isn't eligible. I know it's not my sand pit so I can't have too much a whinge about it, but I am pointing out that there will be a lot of cars that owners would like to drag out of their sheds to play, but won't be able to because it will be too hard to bring them back to comply with these rules.

For those wishing to have a go, especially if stepping up from sprints, have a good look at the rules and your cars to ensure they comply.

I can see the need for the rules to meet the goals of the organisers, but a few more freedoms, ie the 2B rules as they stand with the minimum built and registered in Australia for the quick cars would let plenty more come and play without getting the absolute rocket ships from Gt racing in. The $150k limit sorts this out pretty well.

[Brian]

The other point I would like to make (and I have made it before) is that rule stability is very important - people need to know where their cars sit in respect to a series' regulations. If I am building a car, I need to know what the limits are so I don't over- or under-spend, or spend on things I shouldn't, or neglect things I could/should spend money on. If I have a car, I want to see where it fits and be confident that those rules will hold for the year.

Finally, organisers of a series should have a clear idea of who they are pitching to, and not try to be all things to all people.

These are both very good points.

A bit of background, when we ran the one off MSC earlier this year as a feasibility round we ran them under 2F and 2B rules. However CAMS wrote to AASA stating that the CAMS rules could not be used. Therefore we have had to write our own rules for Modern Sports cars. Starting with a clean sheet of paper we decided that we wanted three levels of modification to cater for entry level, some modification and a highly modified class. The sports class roughly aligns to 2F but actually has a number of additional freedoms. The modified class roughly aligns to 2B but we have not included a number of 2B items (Block substitution, windscreen removal, plastic windows, light weight panels, flared guards) the objective being to not let the Modified class become too fast.

The whole category is targeted towards lower cost budget racing. There is currently no equivalent to the Showroom class and it is targeted at first timers and very low budget racing. Having that style of class means that the modified class cannot be allowed to be too fast or we will end up with issues with Showroom class qualifying too slow.

So this category is designed for low budget racing with scope to improve competitors cars without having the A class cars being out of control. If you really want to go mega fast then their are other categories that cater for those people and their budgets (Prodsports, Sports Sedans, Carrera Cup).

Having started with a blank sheet of paper we have drafted the rules and published. We recognise that we may have made some errors or omissions and we will correct those. Once we have corrected the obvious issues, the rules will then be stabilised to give people surety going forward. Because I 110% agree with green machine that we cannot have a rule book that is constantly changing.

Cheers

Brian

[Brian]

The issue with engine swaps and block substitution is not with the little swaps its the big swaps and big block substitutions that can occur. It is also not that innovative, I had a block substitution MX5 back in 2002.

The engine swap rules and block substitution rules create a avenue for significant power increase. An example would be the 3.9 litre 500 hp boxster/cayman or the 2.4 litre toyota engined lotus that would be a real concern and create a similar situation as has happened in Prodsports.

There is plenty of scope for modification of cars that will be plenty fast enough in this category, hopefully without causing the back end of the grid to be adversely impacted.

If you want to go real fast then there are other categories that already cater for really fast cars - Prodsports or sports sedans.

Cheers

Brian

Brian
A point well made on the porsche and lotus and I agree. As I'm not that familiar with these I maybe wrong but aren't these complete engine substitutions?
If block substitution was limited to the same family of engine so as to retain orginal cyl. head and auxiliary compentary without modifications to make them fit and engine must remain in orignal location without modification, wouldn't this limit it to minor substitutions? I know I come at this with a vested interest as I have done a few 2.5 litre NCs, in defence to this I come at it from a cost point of veiw, the most powerful car we have has a 2.0 litre engine that, aside from JDM point might be eligible, the main difference it cost close to 3 times as much to build, the 2.5 litre experiment was more a cost solution rather than a performance one.

Regards

Daniel

Daniel the Porsche example fits within what you propose the Boxster/Cayman come with Porsche M96 engines, these M96 engines are also used in the 911 Carrera so a 3.8 litre Carrera S engine can be block substituted (The heads and ancillaries are the same) add some cams, porting, exhaust, inlet and electronics and there is your 500hp. This is not what we want.

As I stated in an earlier post the intention was to allow imported cars including JDM Mazdas so we will need to clarify those rules. The objective is to allow cost effective racing and imported cars are a good avenue for getting very cost effective cars. The Australian specification is to ensure we only have imports that are of equivalent to Australian spec to exclude cars that were not sold here such as Supercharged/turbo MR2 or TT Supras etc. We will do a revision to the rules to cover this issue.

Cheers

Brian

[zossy1]

With regard to MattR's post, I have similar (but not as significant) problems. Wheel width, some of the bodywork issues, one or two tech items.

It does appear to be a "sand pit" as you say - a sand pit for low cost racers who can't afford CF panels, stroker kits, and 245-275 section tyres. I'm not necessarily against that but that is the market they are pitching to.

[MattR]

With regard to MattR's post, I have similar (but not as significant) problems. Wheel width, some of the bodywork issues, one or two tech items.

It does appear to be a "sand pit" as you say - a sand pit for low cost racers who can't afford CF panels, stroker kits, and 245-275 section tyres. I'm not necessarily against that but that is the market they are pitching to.

But even without the carbon panels, fibreglass are as cheap as metal and easier to fit/replace and source for my car. The engine will be out of spec on even a budget rebuild as I will have to source multiple blocks to find one that will work within the 2% capacity limit, ie only need a hone, unfortunately a similar situation to my old L series motors where we sourced multiple blocks to find one that could be bored out by 3mm. The other option is to sleeve a block, but again not allowed in the rules as I read them.

The tyres I use are chosen because they are cheap, second hand porsche cup tyres for $100 a throw for used quallies up to $270 each for new Achilles slicks in a 270/65/18, the same cost or less than a set of decent r spec tyres in 16", which is the standard wheel diameter for a S14.

As I said in my post, my illegible car will be on the track for $15k with a standard engine, a very cheap race car in the scheme of things. The cost of building an S14 is ridiculously cheap compared to a lot of other cars due to the amount of aftermarket support.

I can see the appeal of the category, but some of the restriction do have the potential to make the build costs more than a well set out of rules with some more freedoms can. The cost is one reason I am building a 2B spec car versus a 2F spec car. The aftermarket parts available to me and the freedoms allowed make for a much cheaper build than to comply with 2F regulations.