Fatality at a track day in the US

[mazmad]

Hands are a bit of an issue with our cars. It seems you can either hang on to the wheel and break your wrists or have them flap about and get all crumpled in a rollover. What are you meant to do????

i have been going backwards and forwards on this issue for a while. For a window net for our car you need one which attaches to the top of the cage (can't attach it to the roof obviously). And usually attaches on the bottom to a rod which disengages. I just hate the idea of a short length of rod flying around in the cabin in a big whack. Have to find a net which attaches to the door intrusion bar with Velcro or some such.

[toppertee]

Another point which was picked up earlier.
Is the speed of the cars now.
Faster you go, the better the tires, the more up poopoo creak you are, when things go wrong.
No one likes to see people hurt or killed on the track, but Darwins law must count for something?
From another angle its No different when I use to ride my motorbike. I mean you can roll up at a motorbike track day, helmet, leathers and away you go.

[MrB]

I've seen a few nasty hits on the track where airbags have been deployed, including some MX5 ones, and they've done their job really well. I've yet to see a case of an airbag going off unnecessarily. If I had airbags I personally wouldn't disable them.

I've also seen a couple of frontal NA accidents where the OEM belts have stretched so much that the drivers or passengers have struck the upper windscreen frame hard. I wouldn't trust them at the track.

As someone who has lived through a full blown impact and rollover at over 140k personally I wouldnt compete without a HANS and preferably with head restraint seats and window nets both of which I have in my race mx5. What people seem to miss on here is the fundamental difference between the engineering principles behind both a road car and a race car. Road cars and their safety systems are designed around a/ relatively low speed crashes and b/ energy dissipation. This means the car is designed to crumple, the seat belts are designed to hold you there but have some give and the airbags to protect you from that give. When you change the equation by putting a roll cage, 6 point harness etc in a car you are in effect creating a safety cell which is designed to keep you safe inside it. By restraining the body (you will still move BTW) you prevent your body and head from moving in conjunction with each other - which is why people are snapping their necks in major impacts. To some extent I actually agree that you are safer NOT having a harness if you are stupid enough not to have a hans on - . I believe that it is time that safety at both club and the lower levels of racing got serious about this stuff because if you cant afford the basic safety gear then as far as i'm concerned you shouldnt be competing. Motorcross and drag racing have all gone down these roads and I dont think the cost issue really should be allowed to come into it other than CAMS and AASA etc working with people such as the Racer Industries, Revolution race gear etc etc etc to bring the costs of these items down. With reference to seats they should firmly grip you at your shoulders and hips as this is where your body is most able to take a lateral impact - and the harness holes MUST be at the right height to prevent you moving upwards in the case of the rollover which is often the cause of spinal injuries. Before you ask the head restraint seat in my 5 is a motor quality one that i purchased from meridian motorsport in vic before they closed down their retail arm.

[zero00]

I don't think you'll find anything in the HANS documents Matt. It's more a case of real world experiences with race cars. I'm only pointing out that the HANS device, of itself, is not the complete answer. I agree with your comments about the car remaining safe on the road.

For me? Lap/sash, belt tensioner, airbags and driving on the track at nine tenths.

Same JBT, lap/sash, CAMS approved rollbar, front airbags but I got the neck device to suit lap/sash as an interim - me? bu my lap times maybe eight tenths

[mazmad]

Anyone have any recommended seats with wings for our 'lil machines? Looks like the Sparco Ergo will fit.
btw it is $660 inc. shipping from Demon Tweeks

[Magpie]

I will need to check the rules but I think seats with large wings can not be used in road cars as it restricts vision.

[mazmad]

I haven't seen anything on that. 'Schedule C' addresses seats in closed cars, but don't see anything that would cover mx5s.

[deviant]

Hands are a bit of an issue with our cars. It seems you can either hang on to the wheel and break your wrists or have them flap about and get all crumpled in a rollover. What are you meant to do????

i have been going backwards and forwards on this issue for a while. For a window net for our car you need one which attaches to the top of the cage (can't attach it to the roof obviously). And usually attaches on the bottom to a rod which disengages. I just hate the idea of a short length of rod flying around in the cabin in a big whack. Have to find a net which attaches to the door intrusion bar with Velcro or some such.

Not the cheapest but I think these are a nice solution but they do still require some engineering: http://www.rogueengineering.com/rogue/SAFE/WINNET.html

Window nets are often overlooked actually. They need to be very tight to work properly but to tight and they are a bugger to do up and to release again (bad for if you need to bail out!). They need to be the right size for the car.

I will need to check the rules but I think seats with large wings can not be used in road cars as it restricts vision.

I think this is the crux of it. It gets to a point where you have to make the decision between race car or road car. I.E...If you want to build a hipo turbo MX5 for trackdays that will do 250KMH on the straights then you better be serious about keeping it safe and that generally means modifying the car beyond what is acceptable or legal in a road car.

[Magpie]

From my quick reasearch, provided the seat complies with the appropriate clauses of ADR 3/... then it can be installed under a LK1 modification (provided all states have reciprocal legislation). So if the seat has large wings as is ADR approved then it can be installed.

NCOP7 Section LK Seating and Occupant Protection V2 01Jan2011
4 BASIC MODIFICATIONS WITHOUT CERTIFICATION
The following modifications may be carried out without certification under an LK Code, provided that the vehicle continues to comply with relevant ADRs and AVSR and provided that the vehicle meets the following general safety requirements.
4.1 OPTIONAL SEATS
Manufacturer’s optional seats may be fitted provided that:
 the seats, seatbelts and all other associated components are from the same make and model as the vehicle to which they are being fitted;
 the installation is in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications;
 all components used are unmodified;
 the seating capacity is unaltered; and
 the safety features of the seat are not downgraded (e.g. seats fitted with side airbags are not replaced with seats that do not have this feature or are not compatible with the parent vehicle safety systems).

MODIFICATIONS COVERED UNDER CODE LK1
The following is a summary of the modifications that may be performed under Code LK1.
 Installation of complying seats to complying anchorage points;
 Installation of complying seatbelts to complying anchorage points;
 Installation of complying seat and seatbelt anchorages; and
 Removal of seats and seatbelts to reduce seating capacity.
A complying seat means a seat that already complies with the appropriate clauses of ADR 3/..., VSB 5A or VSB 5B. e.g. an original seat taken from a production vehicle that complies with the ADRs is a complying seat, providing the seat is in good condition and unmodified.

[deviant]

It is worth noting that getting a seat approved is not some multi-million dollar crash-testing, burning, dropping from heights testing crap. It is more like a few hours of an engineers time that is willing to interpret the requirements of the test and to sign off on it.

As I understand it the seat is basically bolted to a bench using all your hardware and a set load is applied to it and the deflection measured. There are guys in the kit car scene that have had their home made seats approved and they were nothing more than foam that was trimmed and attached to wood to form a squab and back rest bolted directly to the car.

Something else worth noting is that ADR's have been harmonised with UNECE regulations. There are engineers out there that have spent the time to study the links and wording closely and are signing off on things like ECE marker harnesses.

[Suspense]

Worth checking with the Australian distributors of your particular seat too. I asked the Sparco distributors about the Sprint V and they had gone through the engineering to confirm it was ADR approved and were happy to share the engineering report.

[motomenace]

Even if you spend 1000's and 1000's on safty equipment theres still the possibilities of being killed or injured.
Motorsport is dangerous and some peoples ambitions outweigh talent.

In my opinion the safest safty gear is your Brain!! Use it. Driving at 9/10's is surely safer than buying all the saftey gear.

Motorsport is dangerous and always will be. Speed isnt the issue but rather the sudden stop at the end. Sometimes having all the gear can make u feel safer than what u actually are and give people the thought they can push harder than their capable. All this discusion about seats is fair enough, but they don't all fit in the mx5. The sparco v sprint is an extreamly safe seat and costs only $500. A fixed seat is always safer than a recline able seat too!

A safe driver is always going to be safer than a bad driver with safety gear. Look at motorcycle racing. 300kmph a suit and helmet and how many deaths do we have in Australia each year??.

[PaulF]

I think everyone in this thread understands that motorsport has its risks, so I think it goes without saying. Driving within your limit is all well and good, but there are always other factors e.g. other drivers, mechanical failures etc. Part of using your brain, surely, is to plan for the worst case scenario - especially for those who participate frequently or who race door-to-door.

Sometimes having all the gear can make u feel safer than what u actually are and give people the thought they can push harder than their capable.

Are you honestly suggesting that people should avoid buying safety gear for the sake of an attitude adjustment?

The sparco v sprint is an extreamly safe seat and costs only $500. A fixed seat is always safer than a recline able seat too!

Recommending one seat for everyone hardly seems safe to me. People come in all shapes and sizes and should buy a seat to match. I would also hesitate to make such a broad generalisation about fixed vs reclinable seats - there are some very good reclinable seats and some very poor fixed back seats out there.

[Guran]

It's worth thinking about the hierarchy of hazard control in this debate. In order of decreasing effectiveness, you can protect yourself in the following ways:

Elimination - Don't drive on the track. Boo!

Substitution - Best option would be to drive well below the limits of grip. But where's the fun in that? You could argue that driving a slower car is also a Substitution control measure. Works for me!

Engineering controls - Taken care of by the circuit owners via gravel traps, tyre barriers, etc. A concrete wall is also an engineering control if it's the difference between hitting it or going off a cliff edge (eg. Skyline at Bathurst). Also included in this control measure is proper car maintenance. Mechanical failures are often the trigger for major crashes on the track.

Administrative controls - All the stuff that's covered at driver's briefing, including the rules around "no racing" at supersprints. These briefings can become a bit monotonous when you're heard them hundreds of times, but we should ALWAYS give them 100% attention and ask questions if there's any uncertainty about a ruling.

Personal protective equipment - Harness, helmet, HANS, race suit, gloves, rollbar padding, airbag, etc is all a form of PPE and is the least effective way to control hazards.

This is not to say that we should be forgetting about PPE. Just highlighting that if you need to rely on it, far too many higher level preventative measures have already gone wrong. Sometimes the holes in the Swiss cheese line up, unfortunately.

MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS! And that's a big part of the attraction!

BTW, I've just ordered myself a HANS via that deal going with Racer Industries.

[toppertee]

^^^^
Great post, fair call on the PPE.

The last thing, IMO, is a bloody nanny state, where you can't run at a track day, if you don't have a full on safety set up in the car. You are much safer on the track than the drive to and from the track, at least there is no clowns coming in the other dicrection.... Well most times...