2B and 2F specifics

[toppertee]

Right.

The whole point Ive been making all along.

I think the rules are fine as everyone has to abide by the same rules however clarification needs to be made on a bunch of them, the forums are the perfect place because its permanent and public.

Dann

It's a forum Dann I.E 95% who race will laugh, when you turn up and state we set the rules on Friday night on the forum.
Most people think forums are for looser, the rest of them are just looking for cheap parts in the for sale section!

[NitroDann]

Yeah, and the rules state that the original air intake must remain and be clearly identified so I can modify it however I want so long as people recognise it?

Dann

[mazmad]

The issue you will have to deal with is if you think someone has stepped outside the rules then you have to put up your money and protest. Will make you consider how big the sheep station is.

[gslender]

Most luddites think forums are for looser, the rest of them are just looking for cheap parts in the for sale section!

Fixed that for ya!

[NitroDann]

how about a long list of components and a check box that says either free not or otherwise. eg.

2F

pistons Free however 1.5mm over bore max
rods Free
camshafts Free
inlet manifold Modified standard only, stock appearance must remain
valves Stock Only
lifters Stock only

etc etc

(this list was compiled off the top of my head may be rig or wrong for 2f.

But the point is that it looks like people want cars built to the spirit of the rules, so the spirit of the rules need to be documented clearly. the rules clearly don't allow modified throttle cross tubes but the spirit of the rules must do based on the fact everyone has one.

Dann

[gslender]

the rules clearly don't allow modified throttle cross tubes but the spirit of the rules must do based on the fact everyone has one.

Also, I've read from posts here that "if the rules don't say you can, you must assume you cannot remove or change it" and the rules don't mention removing the MAF sensor, so why do most of the 2F cars have them removed?

Again, I guess the "assumption" is that a MAF sensor is part of the engine control unit and associated wiring harness, and that being free means you can change it... so why can't I "assume" the TB/TPS is part of the engine control unit and change it?

From my view, that seems equally reasonable and yet I'd be told I broke the rules... by some luddite who thinks forums are for losers no doubt!

G

[MattR]

But the rules are stated clearly in the cams manual under the racing section for vehicles that are to comply with group 2f production sports cars. The rules clearly state that unless it is specifically mentioned that a part is free or can be modified, then you cannot change it from standard.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Yes, there are cars that don't comply that have been built, and it is up to the category administators to sort that out. If you are really worried you can protest the eligibility of the car, and if the protest is upheld then the car must be returned to spec before it can race again.

If you build your car to the rules then you will have no problems with eligibilty and can come racing and have a ball.

[NitroDann]

why is my post a bad idea or won't work?

don't all of the cars have modified intakes from the throttle forward?


that would be the spirit of the rules right?


Dann

[gslender]

The rules clearly state that unless it is specifically mentioned that a part is free or can be modified, then you cannot change it from standard.

That's the problem MattR, they aren't clear, or that interpretation is open and freely allowed.

G

[Magpie]

It is not interpretation that you want it is precedent when it comes to what is in or not in if the rules are 'unclear'. If you are unsure what is and what isn't included get in contact with the Pre Log Book Scrutineers (http://docs.cams.com.au/CAMS%20Forms/Logbooks/Pre%20Log%20Book%20Inspection%20List%20MARCH.pdf) and ask away. The one I spoke to was very helpful, however I was not trying to convince him that my 2B should actually be a 2F or look for loopholes.

The next argument I can see coming up is this one says this this one says that. A forum is not the best place to resolve rules as they are not the forum rules they are CAMS or AASA's rules hence for a definitive answer ask the people who make them. That way you can come back on here and post what you have found out, this would be more informative! Further, if people already know the answer SAY it don't go on a fishing expedition and/or shout ‘I told you so’ or ‘I knew that’. Add value to the conversation not to your troll count.

Dann do any of your cars have a CAMS logbook or do you intend to get one? If not then maybe this is not an area that should have your current focus, however any experience in having set precedents with respect to CAMS 2B/2F would be appreciated.

[little decks]

From my experience CAMS logbook officials just rock up and check you have all your tow hooks kill switches and any other safety equipment fitted... even your rollcage now, once the design is approved by CAMS the actual structure is self certified... CAMS logbookers aren't rulebook encyclopedias unless maybe they build or race cars in that particular category...

The problem you will always have with interpreting these rules is that they are written for a fairly extensive list of cars, its not a 1 make series where you can pin-point exact parts, once rules have been interpreted in some way that is then generally accepted by competitors and officials its like a gentleman's precedent has been set... case in point C/A intakes... Everyone uses a non-standard intake, it was obviously accepted somewhere along the way that this is within the series of the rules.

[MattR]

why is my post a bad idea or won't work?

don't all of the cars have modified intakes from the throttle forward?


that would be the spirit of the rules right?


Dann

Read the 2f rules paragraph 4.2, that will give your answer to the vexing question of the legalities of existing setups, c'mon people does it have to be this hard.........

[motomenace]

If you wanted to write down all the rules exact then you would need 800 pages, then u would need a lawyer to interpret what is being said.
At this level it makes no sense. A general gentleman's" agreement between competitors at this level is the only way to keep things fair. As we have seen people read and interpret the rules differently than some. The idea seems to be to stop people spending ridiculous money on a class designed to be cheap.

Theres an obsesion with itb's out their. Its simple 2f cars cant run them, 2b can. So if you want itb's then you go into 2b. If you want to spend ridiculous money on modifing a stock manifold for itb's to run in 2f is just sad!!.

A simple solution would be to put a bigger throttle body on the stock manifold and port it a bit!!

Class will be great if people build cars to spec, and do it for fun. Fun gets taken out when people do as the rules state, and others show up (showing how "clever" they are), and blast away with significant power/weight than other cars in class.

I dont think those who are found cheating should be banned, however if your car is deemed illegal, a giant fluro banner across the windscreen saying "i cant drive so i cheat", placed on the windsreen, so everyone knows why your faster!! ;)

As for tuning the only way to monitor a turbo car would be to run boost data logging.. (ask ric shaw about this) hes been caught out in nearly every series hes run for this!!

[toppertee]

Great post Motomenace.

[NitroDann]

Also this is the official answer regarding ITB on 2F cars:

The 2F rules state "The inlet manifold may be modified by the removal of metal provided the original component is able to be identified." It does not say anything about the throttle body, therefore the throttle body must remain standard. There is no scope to change from a single throttle body to ITB.

If you want to run ITB then you can under the 2B rules.

Cheers

Brian

If you wanted to write down all the rules exact then you would need 800 pages, then u would need a lawyer to interpret what is being said.
At this level it makes no sense. A general gentleman's" agreement between competitors at this level is the only way to keep things fair. As we have seen people read and interpret the rules differently than some. The idea seems to be to stop people spending ridiculous money on a class designed to be cheap.

Theres an obsesion with itb's out their. Its simple 2f cars cant run them, 2b can. So if you want itb's then you go into 2b. If you want to spend ridiculous money on modifing a stock manifold for itb's to run in 2f is just sad!!.

A simple solution would be to put a bigger throttle body on the stock manifold and port it a bit!!

Class will be great if people build cars to spec, and do it for fun. Fun gets taken out when people do as the rules state, and others show up (showing how "clever" they are), and blast away with significant power/weight than other cars in class.

I dont think those who are found cheating should be banned, however if your car is deemed illegal, a giant fluro banner across the windscreen saying "i cant drive so i cheat", placed on the windsreen, so everyone knows why your faster!! ;)

As for tuning the only way to monitor a turbo car would be to run boost data logging.. (ask ric shaw about this) hes been caught out in nearly every series hes run for this!!

Great post Motomenace.

This is why the answer "run by the rules, but break x y and z cos theres a gentlemans agreement", doesnt work well.

Im going to make a table to simplify it.

Dann