What ECU for my SE

[gslender]

For less than any other brands entry ECU you can get the MS3 Pro with plug-n-play harness that has features and capabilities matching the other ECUs costing over $2500. Yep, you'll need to learn the tuning software and road tune the beast, but then you can pop off to any Dyno and finish the job.

The ms3 pro is no more a DIY kit than any other ecu now. So if you wanna save some $$ to spend on Dyno time, why not give it a further look.

G

[Lokiel]

:
The SE turbo with good exhust and ECU will make 165 KW ATRW ( DANN I DARE YOU )
:

I've seen this magic "165 rwkw" quoted a few times with CAI, Exhaust, Injector and ECU modz and I'm calling "BS" on it, at least here in Australia.

Best I've seen with these modz is MINX's 157rwkw, he uses a Haltech ECU.

My best, using an Adaptronic e440 Select ECU, when tuned by Anthony from the former "Kaizen Garage" was ~157rwkw and when Bob Romano's recently re-tuned it with a Dyno printout showing 149.3rwkw (limited to 13psi) - Romano's are perfectionists and did not want to go beyond this since it guaranteed NO pinging.


Best advice regarding an ECU is to find a tuner nearby with a good reputation and use whatever ECU they recommend since they'll know it inside-out and get the most out of it. In my case, I don't doubt that Anthony was able to get more out of my car than Romano's since he's an Adaptronic specialist whereas Romano's are Haltech specialists (I used Romano's since Anthony now works full time in the mining industry and is REALLY hard to get hold of - Romano's are 2 blocks away from me and do great work).

As for the Chiptorque reflash, I can only recommend that option once you've finished doing all your modz otherwise it will get expensive - an ECU is a much better alternative if you plan to keep on upgrading.

[gslender]

I know I will sound biased in saying this, but this "use the ECU the tuner knows" isn't the best advice.

The output figures alone don't support sticking to a brand based on the tuner - you get the same result regardless of whether you picked Haltech or Adaptronic - neither tuner gave any better outcome, and one tuner refused to go any higher/better and produced such a safe tune it produced a lower result!

As for the argument that says "hey I'm completely unaware of what I'm doing with this $2000 user customisable engine computer, so I will always pay someone else to modify it" - you again may as well pick the ECU flashing for all the benefit a standalone ECU has bought you. These standalone ECU systems are not black science and certainly not so overly confusing they cannot be used by someone who has taken the time to understand the basics involved. The computers and mobile phones we use are considerably more complex in terms of software, code and technology - don't be fooled into thinking the engine computer is this start of the art bit of electronics - it isn't!

Further, I find it amazing that people can throw $2000+ at this subject and have no investment themselves in what is being provided - do you buy a home theatre system and just choose the one based on the the local JB HiFi or home theatre business? Do you get them back every-time you need to record a movie??? Nope - you sit down and learn/read until you have the knowledge to adjust/modify the settings and make your own changes as needed, after all, that's the point of having a system as complex as a home theatre.

Equally, the point of these ECU systems is to give the engine owner (you) the ability to modify and change certain aspects of the engine fuel or spark based on a range of inputs. Sure it is working inside your $15K+ car, but the principles of the engine have been known for ages and ages - this isn't some new age thermonuclear reaction that only a small number of people in the world fully understand.

Fact is, you can easily get a really safe and reliable tune without putting the engine at risk - sure, your fuel economy and power output might not be ideal with a road tune, but you can get a better than stock outcome and still sit way on the safe side. Using an area I am familiar with (MegaSquirt) I can tell you I've seen more engines detonated due to using stock ECUs with O2 clamps, fuel regulators and other band-aide treatments than from the custom ECU path - and this is with people building an ECU from $300 parts. When you buy a $800 MSPNP2 or $1100 MS3 you are buying a fully assembled ECU with no home assembly at all - so the risk of things going wrong is no different to buying a big brand, over priced ECU.

And finally, what are you going to do if you a) fall out with the engine tuner due to some disagreement or dispute, b) move to somewhere where you can't get Band XYZ tuned locally, c) decide you want to use tuner ABC because of his Dyno but can't because you are 100% clueless with the ECU in your car, or d) funds are tight and you want to sell off some intake or change a bit on the car and you need to adjust the fuelling ever so slightly (knowing you can always restore the last tune if you wish).

I'm starting to think a Myths of Engine Management thread or website is needed - I might even produce a comparison table comparing brands and features so that people can really see the difference and make their own choice without all the FUD.

Sorry if I offend anyone who has paid $2000+ for their ECU and installation, but frankly I'm not buying this "just pick the ECU the tuner uses" as being the smartest advice....

G

[Smacca]

I've seen this magic "165 rwkw" quoted a few times with CAI, Exhaust, Injector and ECU modz and I'm calling "BS" on it, at least here in Australia.

My previously owned SE with an AEM intake, turbo-back Magnaflow exhaust, intercooler, Flyin Miata throttle pipe, larger injectors, stock turbo and Adaptronic ECU tuned by MX-5 Mania made 165 rwkw. I've still got the dyno printout somewhere at home to prove it...

[sailaholic]

Ok, i'm from the let the tuner choose side of the fence but will explain my reasoning.

The output figures alone don't support sticking to a brand based on the tuner - you get the same result regardless of whether you picked Haltech or Adaptronic - neither tuner gave any better outcome, and one tuner refused to go any higher/better and produced such a safe tune it produced a lower result!

G

I agree here assuming both ECU's have the same capacity to tune the engine. As Gslender and i both know. Not all ecus are created equal. However a tuner that is familiar with the ECU you are using should be able to do a better tune in the same time ($). OR they will be happy to push the tune further because they are comfortable with the software. See abouve

As for the argument that says "hey I'm completely unaware of what I'm doing with this $2000 user customisable engine computer, so I will always pay someone else to modify it" - you again may as well pick the ECU flashing for all the benefit a standalone ECU has bought you. G

Not quite true......A standalone ECU should give you the additional capacity to do / handle things the stock ECU wouldn't. In the case of the NB, a re flash is only done by a very small amount of people. If you don't want extra capacity from the ecu, and reflashes are viable option (availability of suppliers) then yes, REFLASH! it will be easier. Ie NC's

Further, I find it amazing that people can throw $2000+ at this subject and have no investment themselves in what is being provided - do you buy a home theatre system and just choose the one based on the the local JB HiFi or home theatre business? G

Yup some people certainly do, because they don't have the time/desire to completely educate themselves to the level equal to the professional that is making the recommendation.
And importantly, there is some things you only find out AFTER you've been using the ecu. Ie little foibles / advantages bit and pieces that don't show on the paper spec sheet. A tuner experienced with a number of ecus will have found these little bits and pieces out.

Equally, the point of these ECU systems is to give the engine owner (you) the ability to modify and change certain aspects of the engine fuel or spark based on a range of inputs. G

This is going to completely depend on the type of person. I know a few people who see the ECU as giving the ability to get more power out of the engine. In this case i guess you could say they aren't the engine owner? They know what they want and that is seat time, not tool time. Sure you need a bigger wallet to follow this approach....but plenty of people do.

Fact is, you can easily get a really safe and reliable tune without putting the engine at risk - sure, your fuel economy and power output might not be ideal with a road tune.G

Ok this is the really (personally) important part for me. Ok so you've just done a turbo build, or big(er) NA build cams ect ect ect. You've probably dropped close to $3500? on the upgrade...why stint the $600-800 to get it tuned? Why not get the best you can out of it? Every 100km you travel with high fuel consumption starts chipping away at that tuning money. Sure if it's pure racecar you might not care about the fuel, but you might care about the additional power.

NA engines are alittle more forgiving (base don my research) then a boosted applications as the consequences of getting it wrong for a sort time period are far more likely to be a big problem.

Using an area I am familiar with (MegaSquirt) I can tell you I've seen more engines detonated due to using stock ECUs with O2 clamps, fuel regulators and other band-aide treatments than from the custom ECU path -

Couldn't agree more that band aids are far more likely to lead to issues.

and this is with people building an ECU from $300 parts. When you buy a $800 MSPNP2 or $1100 MS3 you are buying a fully assembled ECU with no home assembly at all - so the risk of things going wrong is no different to buying a big brand, over priced ECU.

- Assuming you are comparing apples to apples

And finally, what are you going to do if you a) fall out with the engine tuner due to some disagreement or dispute, b) move to somewhere where you can't get Band XYZ tuned locally, c) decide you want to use tuner ABC because of his Dyno but can't because you are 100% clueless with the ECU in your car, or d) funds are tight and you want to sell off some intake or change a bit on the car and you need to adjust the fueling ever so slightly (knowing you can always restore the last tune if you wish).

THis is where it comes back to the person and how much you want out of the EMS. Assuming you are going to pay someone to tune it (Haltec, MS, Motec etc)

A& B) This is a actually an advantage to big name EMS as they are easier to find someone to tune it then the Megasquirt.
C) only applies to the people willing to self tune on someone else dyno....pretty small minority....i think?
D) I'm not sure i see this situation, but i my have blinkers on due to my own opinions.

- D1) If the car is only road tuned, then then tune it not on the limit and minor twearks can be made because 1) the owner self tuned to start with, b) it's probably not that tight of a tune to matter.

- D2) if it's dyno tuned to the "the limit" ie not running particularly safe and you did a semi significant upgrade....yah ok you would need to adjust the fueling...but would you have done the upgrade it money was tight? I guess your saying if you don't need to re tune the upgrade could be half the cost? Semi valid i guess, your still only going to be able to road tune the edit though? so kinda puts the situation back into the road tune category?

I might even produce a comparison table comparing brands and features so that people can really see the difference and make their own choice without all the FUD. G

Sounds really good, but to be fair...you would need input from people on the "big name" side of the coin.
When i got my car tuned, i tried talking to the tuner about the MS stuff, his basic response was "i'm not even going waste my time talking about the problems with the crap" - Now i haven't mentioned this just to piss MS people off so hold in there.
I came back to this questions a number of times, even adding that there were new MS out with more features (right up to the pro) as i suspected that he may have only dealt with older MS stuff. He still steadfastly refused to bother talking about it.

Now this wasn't the only response along this lines i got from professional tuning shops. It doesn't mean it accurate / applicable to the newer hardware...but when you have that many people saying it i would like to hear the reasons, along with counters arguments/explanation etc from mega squirt tuners who are familiar to the system.

on a side note to gslender (who has "spared" with me before on EMS stuff). I did go an read some of the MS stuff you linked in earlier threads. Some of this did help to understand why megasquirt has been developed in the way it has. This is what lead to trying to ask the questions above.

[plohl]

uuummm.... no ones has mentioned that there are large discrepancies between dynos... the difference between 157 and 165 is 8rwkw... about 5%. From what I have seen, it is pretty easy to get 5% difference between dynos.

[Juicy HiC]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Here's the thing for me - I'm certainly interested in learning and playing with my ecu, otherwise I wouldn't be going down this road. However as far as MS goes, I don't really want to go to that level of DIY for a start and I am concerned that while learning I'll mess something up.
As far as tuners go I've only just found the place that I'm looking at, they've done a basic service on my car and I've spent a bit of time chatting with them, I don't really know yet how much I trust or believe in their abilities. They look like they've been around for a while which is a start. Although they seem to be typical western suburbs melbournites who are very biased to vl Holden's which does take a little bit away from them. However so far they're the only place that I've found on that side of town. All the other places are at least an hours drive away which I don't really want to do as time is always limited.

[Lokiel]

uuummm.... no ones has mentioned that there are large discrepancies between dynos... the difference between 157 and 165 is 8rwkw... about 5%. From what I have seen, it is pretty easy to get 5% difference between dynos.

That was my "masked" point, some dynos are more generous than others and the 150-ish rwhp figure seems to be more common; there is only one dyno I'm aware of that reports 165rwkw with bolt-on mods and an aftermarket ECU, and given that several of us here in QLD have spent lots of $$$ trying to achieve this figure, we DON'T, hence my "skepticism".


gslender, you're now familiar with the MS and have probably spent a LOT of time researching it and tuning it. One of the reasons I chose an Adaptronic over a Haltech was because it allowed me to do my own tweaking - and I'm a habitual tweaker (Adaptronic's WARI tuner software is free - Haltech's is NOT and expensive). Unfortunately I don't often get a lot of spare time which is why I took it to a tuner in the first place, it's about 95% perfect now and with some work on my part, I'm sure I can get it close to 99%.

I still intend to learn more about it, when I get time, but most users simply don't have the time to learn their ECU and all the theory behind it to tune it (then actually go ahead and tune it), or just want the damn thing to work and are happy to pay a tuner to do it. Purchasing an ECU should be based on what category that you fall into. If you're a DIYer, getting a decent base map to start from is very important.

FYI: I'm happy to share my current Adaptronic e440 Select Base Map with anyone who asks. Several guys are already using it. I've done this before so that others can use it as a starting point and contribute any improvements. One user from Norway actually found that allowing the OEM ECU to control Idle and VTCS was MUCH better than the Adaptronic so I've made that change too.

Please note: I have NOT recommended any ECU in this thread, nor knocked any since I'm not qualified to do so (and I'm a little biased) - I've just given you some food for thought so that you can make a decision that suits you best.

[sailaholic]

I've seen this magic "165 rwkw" quoted a few times with CAI, Exhaust, Injector and ECU modz and I'm calling "BS" on it, at least here in Australia.

My previously owned SE with an AEM intake, turbo-back Magnaflow exhaust, intercooler, Flyin Miata throttle pipe, larger injectors, stock turbo and Adaptronic ECU tuned by MX-5 Mania made 165 rwkw. I've still got the dyno printout somewhere at home to prove it...

Manias dyno is a very happy dyno. They have a stock na8 with some basic intake and exhaust mods making 101 rwkw.

[timk]

You have to be careful when it comes to features listed for an ECU, I have seen a number of times where features simply aren't finished or don't work properly. In my own personal experiences, Haltech (E6A) and MegaSquirt (MS1-Extra) have been guilty of this and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Some features can't be compared directly, for example on any recent MoTeC the crank trigger decoder can be configured so if it isn't seeing things exactly right (noise etc) it can shut down the engine for safety.

I have done the MegaSquirt thing with a road tune and although I had a great result in the end, I had to sink a huge amount of time to perfect it. Getting the cranking/startup enrichment spot on is the biggest mission, and often is required when it's a slightly colder morning and you are running late for a meeting with the car being your daily! This might be a bit easier these days with starter maps being available, but they generally aren't very useful unless you are using the exact same injectors.

Like Grant has said none of this is rocket science, it does get boring very quickly. Being quite time poor I'd rather spend available time driving the thing!!

Cheers

[NitroDann]

My 2c,

I wouldnt be so keen on MS if we werent in the mx5 community, however we are.

Look at davekmoores SE that just blew up, it got hot (air and water temp), the ecu didnt pull any timing and the engine mangled itself all over the engine bay, and he spun the car at very very high speed due to the loss of oil.

A safe tune is very important.

Had dave had a MS2/3 the base map he got with it would have had the idle and air con tuning perfected already, the air intake curves and coolant temp curves perfected. The air temp and coolant curves are responsible for pulling timing when its hot and saving things like what happened to dave.

Because the miata community loves these things and shares info, all of the parts that are hard to get spot on on the dyno have been done before you even start the car.

Of course your individual mods and boost level, size of exhaust/intercooler still means the fuel and spark tables need adjustment to get it perfect.

Fact is, just because a bloke has a dyno doesnt mean he will do a better job than an amateur will on his own car.
This is very important to remember. Almost every car dyno'd with full standalone is left with niggles, but with MS, and its community its so easy to learn how to fix that slightly fluctuating idle on super hot days, that hesitation a part throttle change at 3500rpm, whatever it may be.

Grant is right saying that a perfect driving tune with 95% of the power and economy can be had by yourself. I still say get the spark and fuel tables tweaked on the dyno.

On a miata there isnt a single thing you would want that MS3 doesnt have, and Im pretty happy with MS2.

Any dyno tuner can tune a fuel and spark map, they work the EXACT same way on every ecu.

What Im saying is that the comparison between a 'big brand' ecu and MS is that the parts of the tune that you need an expert for have already been done for you with MS, and if you arent 110% happy with the fiddly driveability bits or economy you can easily jump online and have one of hundreds walk you through it or read the fantastic walkthroughs.

When you buy a regular ECU you are relying on the tuner being able to get all the fiddly bits perfect and hope he daily's the car for a week in both summer and winter and drives it at night so he can get all the niggles out, which he obviously will not do.

Thats the only bit that varies from ecu to ecu, the bit you SHOULD do on a dyno, the fuel and spark table is IDENTICAL for every ecu so any tuner can do that with any ECU.

If we were driving evo's or xr6's I wouldnt be so keen on MS but the miata community makes it an absolute no brainer for me.

Dann

[sailaholic]

If you buy a per assembled ms, there is really no more DIY there then getting any other brand and putting it in. Maybe less.

It really comes down to do you want it professional tuned. If so you would need someone willing to tune it.

[NitroDann]

It really comes down to do you want it professional tuned. If so you would need someone willing to tune it.

{the}bit you SHOULD do on a dyno, the fuel and spark table is IDENTICAL for every ecu so any tuner can do that with any ECU.

Dann

Dann

[NitroDann]

but they generally aren't very useful unless you are using the exact same injectors.

With MS its very easy to pick and choose the startup and idle values used by someone with the same model injectors.

Dann

[Okibi]

Great reading, i'll be looking at an ECU for my SE as well.

When MS first started you had to solder everything and if the ecu wasn't working you had to decide if it was your electronics or the software. Way back then I said I wouldn't recommend one to a random MX5 club member and even had someone have a hissy fit and leave the forum because of this comment. Ever since the plug and play megasquirts came out then i've considered them like any other ecu.

Historically i'd have loved a motec for my MX-5 but I barely hear anything about them these days so i'm unsure if they're still held on a pedestal by tuners. Personally I think i'll be choosing between a MS3 and an Adaptronic, both have great support for the MX-5 community.

I'd love to see a comparison chart, I know a bit about cars and a bit about PCs but bugger all about ECUs. It's great to be able to clearly see the different specs to help make an informed decision.

Grant would you be interested in creating a google doc and give a few here access to add information/specs regarding the different ECUs. I know Andy from Adaptronic has been really great at providing customer support, perhaps we could get him to review the spreadsheet from an Adaptronic perspective and explain the pros and cons of his ECU.