1.8 Build specs. PLEASE CRITICISE!!!

[plohl]

Magpie, your math is right - but for future reference; quoted engine figures are generally taken from the fly wheel, before transmission/drivetrain loses are taken into account.

I have seen a dyno plot from an NA8 with some minor mods (lets assume it was stock) and i think it was 60-70 hp at the wheels.

If it comes down to it, and you* wanted affordable power, you* wouldn't have bought an mx5.




*not anyone specific, just in general

[project.r.racing]

I'm going similar route, but always wondered how a head built for NA would do in a turbo application. Obviously cam choices play a big part? How well would a 282deg 10.5mm lift camshaft work in a turbo build?

I glanced somewhere about a extensively ported head could be detrimental to spool time, any truth to that?

look for matt's thread a few days back, your answer is there.

[NitroDann]

Lots of talk and no facts here.

Giving ballpark figures, a 1.6 with intake and exhaust (1500) with a built head and cams (1200) and an ecu and tune (1000-1500) will happily make 130-140rwhp, depending on cam profile.

Say you buy an na6 for 5k with intake and exhaust maybe even some nice suspension, and you spend that money you have added 70+rwhp over stock and have a car that pulls along with 5L's and mild turbo cars for just 8500-9000 bucks.

It will run with a 15-20k SE just fine too.

Dann

[toppertee]

Lots of talk and no facts here.

Giving ballpark figures, a 1.6 with intake and exhaust (1500) with a built head and cams (1200) and an ecu and tune (1000-1500) will happily make 130-140rwhp, depending on cam profile.

Say you buy an na6 for 5k with intake and exhaust maybe even some nice suspension, and you spend that money you have added 70+rwhp over stock and have a car that pulls along with 5L's and mild turbo cars for just 8500-9000 bucks.

It will run with a 15-20k SE just fine too.

Dann

My 1600 doesn't pull anything like that.

My set up.
Machining bottom end and parts $1000.
Balance motor $350
Porting was just a quick clean up.
3 angle grind on head and shave $450
Cams $400
ECU $800
Custom intake and exhaust $1500
So give or take I'm around the 4k mark. At around the 100 rwhp.

So where the hell are you getting the extra 30-40 hp?

Valves are the biggest problem to flow in the head, from what I've read?

So bigger valves, soild lifters, big cams, oil pump that can work above 8k, high comp pistons, springs etc.

I've seen what went into Tbros 1600 and that pulled 137 rwhp on a dyno. There is no way your pulling those number with out a s#it load of cash, last time I check parts, machining cost money.

[NitroDann]

Bigger cams.

Dann

[wozzah1975]

OK (note to self check facts before posting)

According to Wikipedia a NA 1.6ltr 1st gen made 86 kW (115 bhp). So back to the calcs (and I will use the $10k from toppertee's post).

To go from 115 to 130 would cost $666.66 per hp
and to go from 115 to 200 would cost $117.65 per hp

Good luck getting 200RWHP out of the 1600 N/A.

Not out of the question at all, those numbers were made out of 1600 engines 30 years ago. Nothing stopping anyone willing to part with the money to develope an engine to make those numbers. Expensive exercise, but its acheivable.

Cheers
Warren

[wozzah1975]

Lots of talk and no facts here.

Giving ballpark figures, a 1.6 with intake and exhaust (1500) with a built head and cams (1200) and an ecu and tune (1000-1500) will happily make 130-140rwhp, depending on cam profile.

Say you buy an na6 for 5k with intake and exhaust maybe even some nice suspension, and you spend that money you have added 70+rwhp over stock and have a car that pulls along with 5L's and mild turbo cars for just 8500-9000 bucks.

It will run with a 15-20k SE just fine too.

Dann

My 1600 doesn't pull anything like that.

My set up.
Machining bottom end and parts $1000. No extra power there except with comp ratio, which is minimal
Balance motor $350 No extra power here either, just stops harmonics
Porting was just a quick clean up. so not much extra flow, which is what is required to make power
3 angle grind on head and shave $450 standard heads have a 3 angle seat, so no extra here either
Cams $400 power from here if they suited the head flow
ECU $800 power from here if tuned right
Custom intake and exhaust $1500 probably not alot from here either depending on what you did
So give or take I'm around the 4k mark. At around the 100 rwhp.

So where the hell are you getting the extra 30-40 hp? simple, he probably spent the money in the right area to begin with

Valves are the biggest problem to flow in the head, from what I've read? Yes, in a B6 engine this is a problem, and to fit much larger items creates other issues. The valve becomes shrouded around the combustion chamber walls, so ideally the bore size needs to be made larger to accomodate larger valves, and to have them deshrouded correctly. At the power levels you're discussing here though it's not the issue. One thing the B6 does have going for it is that the port angle is better than a BP.

So bigger valves, soild lifters, big cams, oil pump that can work above 8k, high comp pistons, springs etc. Higher numbers can be seen without going over the top.

I've seen what went into Tbros 1600 and that pulled 137 rwhp on a dyno. There is no way your pulling those number with out a s#it load of cash, last time I check parts, machining cost money.

A genuine 100rwkw can be seen out of a B6 without alot of cash being needed to spend if thats what you aim to achieve, it just needs to be spent in the right area, which is the key to making any engine perform.

Cheers
Woz

[manga_blue]

Dweez, I seem to remember you saying you had supersprints in mind. Before you do any mods it's worth having a close look at the class regs and what the benchmarks are in each possible class.

Here's the current NSW supersrints vehicle regs. http://www.supersprints.com.au/rules-an ... sional.pdf
There's a fair bit of detail there about what you're allowed to do with bores, rods, headwork, etc. It's also worth working out the status of a BP motor in an NA6. It might even be better to build a B6 motor for it. The BP is a prick of a motor to compete with because it's outgunned by many of the 2 litres while the B6 is always going to be the biggest engine in its class.

Here are this year's results and times so far to give you an idea of which classes will have reasonable levels of competition and how fast they're going.

R7 Times.pdf

[toppertee]

Lots of talk and no facts here.

Giving ballpark figures, a 1.6 with intake and exhaust (1500) with a built head and cams (1200) and an ecu and tune (1000-1500) will happily make 130-140rwhp, depending on cam profile.

Say you buy an na6 for 5k with intake and exhaust maybe even some nice suspension, and you spend that money you have added 70+rwhp over stock and have a car that pulls along with 5L's and mild turbo cars for just 8500-9000 bucks.

It will run with a 15-20k SE just fine too.

Dann

My 1600 doesn't pull anything like that.

My set up.
Machining bottom end and parts $1000. No extra power there except with comp ratio, which is minimal
Balance motor $350 No extra power here either, just stops harmonics
Porting was just a quick clean up. so not much extra flow, which is what is required to make power
3 angle grind on head and shave $450 standard heads have a 3 angle seat, so no extra here either
Cams $400 power from here if they suited the head flow
ECU $800 power from here if tuned right
Custom intake and exhaust $1500 probably not alot from here either depending on what you did
So give or take I'm around the 4k mark. At around the 100 rwhp.

So where the hell are you getting the extra 30-40 hp? simple, he probably spent the money in the right area to begin with

Valves are the biggest problem to flow in the head, from what I've read? Yes, in a B6 engine this is a problem, and to fit much larger items creates other issues. The valve becomes shrouded around the combustion chamber walls, so ideally the bore size needs to be made larger to accomodate larger valves, and to have them deshrouded correctly. At the power levels you're discussing here though it's not the issue. One thing the B6 does have going for it is that the port angle is better than a BP.

So bigger valves, soild lifters, big cams, oil pump that can work above 8k, high comp pistons, springs etc. Higher numbers can be seen without going over the top.

I've seen what went into Tbros 1600 and that pulled 137 rwhp on a dyno. There is no way your pulling those number with out a s#it load of cash, last time I check parts, machining cost money.

A genuine 100rwkw can be seen out of a B6 without alot of cash being needed to spend if thats what you aim to achieve, it just needs to be spent in the right area, which is the key to making any engine perform.

Cheers
Woz

Point is Woz, that my motor is built to see around the 100 hp mark for track use. The cost for my simple, strong build is around the 4k mark. To get the 100kw you are talking about, with a motor that will last will be around the 10k mark I.M.O.
I'm more than happy to be shown that I wrong so break it down?
How do you get 100kws with spending 4-5k. I'm all ears.

BTW I've got the cash ready to go. In fact I'm looking to build a 1800, I would like to get 140-150 RWHP. How do I do that? If you could break the cost down please
Cheers Nigel.

[NitroDann]

How did you miss my post. The answer is BIGGER CAMS.

Also, if you dont believe that, E85 is 15% extra horsepower across the entire range so thats 115 right there.

Dann

[wozzah1975]

Lots of talk and no facts here.

Giving ballpark figures, a 1.6 with intake and exhaust (1500) with a built head and cams (1200) and an ecu and tune (1000-1500) will happily make 130-140rwhp, depending on cam profile.

Say you buy an na6 for 5k with intake and exhaust maybe even some nice suspension, and you spend that money you have added 70+rwhp over stock and have a car that pulls along with 5L's and mild turbo cars for just 8500-9000 bucks.

It will run with a 15-20k SE just fine too.

Dann

My 1600 doesn't pull anything like that.

My set up.
Machining bottom end and parts $1000. No extra power there except with comp ratio, which is minimal
Balance motor $350 No extra power here either, just stops harmonics
Porting was just a quick clean up. so not much extra flow, which is what is required to make power
3 angle grind on head and shave $450 standard heads have a 3 angle seat, so no extra here either
Cams $400 power from here if they suited the head flow
ECU $800 power from here if tuned right
Custom intake and exhaust $1500 probably not alot from here either depending on what you did
So give or take I'm around the 4k mark. At around the 100 rwhp.

So where the hell are you getting the extra 30-40 hp? simple, he probably spent the money in the right area to begin with

Valves are the biggest problem to flow in the head, from what I've read? Yes, in a B6 engine this is a problem, and to fit much larger items creates other issues. The valve becomes shrouded around the combustion chamber walls, so ideally the bore size needs to be made larger to accomodate larger valves, and to have them deshrouded correctly. At the power levels you're discussing here though it's not the issue. One thing the B6 does have going for it is that the port angle is better than a BP.

So bigger valves, soild lifters, big cams, oil pump that can work above 8k, high comp pistons, springs etc. Higher numbers can be seen without going over the top.

I've seen what went into Tbros 1600 and that pulled 137 rwhp on a dyno. There is no way your pulling those number with out a s#it load of cash, last time I check parts, machining cost money.

A genuine 100rwkw can be seen out of a B6 without alot of cash being needed to spend if thats what you aim to achieve, it just needs to be spent in the right area, which is the key to making any engine perform.

Cheers
Woz

Point is Woz, that my motor is built to see around the 100 hp mark for track use. The cost for my simple, strong build is around the 4k mark. To get the 100kw you are talking about, with a motor that will last will be around the 10k mark I.M.O.
I'm more than happy to be shown that I wrong so break it down?
How do you get 100kws with spending 4-5k. I'm all ears.

BTW I've got the cash ready to go. In fact I'm looking to build a 1800, I would like to get 140-150 RWHP. How do I do that? If you could break the cost down please
Cheers Nigel.

100rwkw on a 1.6 requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 280-290 deg and around .380"-400 lift $1200 (these have recently gone up due to the billets I previously use being no longer available) Your HLA's will be fine if they have a good surface finish
Valve spring set $250
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper available online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
The inlet is a little comlicated on a 1.6, as it flows poorly std. To mod the original is around $450-500, or alternatively a ITB arrangment is preferable (more low/mid torque, and far better drivabilty)
Megasquirt or similar computer to manage it.
Larger valves will add another 10rwkw (approx) and will cost $350 on top of the cylinder head work
Reliable, and basically unbreako unless you do something really silly with it.

1.8, 140-150rwhp.
Requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 270 deg and .360-370" lift ($460 pair for my regrinds)
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper avail online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
Once again, inlet manifold mods are required, ITB's are recommended
megasquirt or similar
1mm Larger valves in this case get around 10-15rwkw more for around $350 set on top of the head work.

Conrods are not required for either engine for those power levels.

Depending on what condition your engines are in to begin with will change the cost of any machine work involved, and what hang ons are required (eg: bearings, timing belt, oil pump etc etc). Obviously if you started with a low klm non abused engine it would be substacially cheaper to do than a 300,000klm flogged and neglected engine.

Typically
To bore is usually around $200
Crank grind $200
Balance $200
Deck Block $150 (inluding dummy assy to measure)
to assemble something along these lines is usually around $6-800

Obviously there are other things to factor in (tuning costs etc), and because I've slapped this together I will have no doubt missed something, but you get the general idea.

Cheers
Woz

[toppertee]

100rwkw on a 1.6 requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 280-290 deg and around .380"-400 lift $1200 (these have recently gone up due to the billets I previously use being no longer available) Your HLA's will be fine if they have a good surface finish
Valve spring set $250
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper available online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
The inlet is a little comlicated on a 1.6, as it flows poorly std. To mod the original is around $450-500, or alternatively a ITB arrangment is preferable (more low/mid torque, and far better drivabilty)
Megasquirt or similar computer to manage it.
Larger valves will add another 10rwkw (approx) and will cost $350 on top of the cylinder head work
Reliable, and basically unbreako unless you do something really silly with it.

1.8, 140-150rwhp.
Requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 270 deg and .360-370" lift ($460 pair for my regrinds)
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper avail online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
Once again, inlet manifold mods are required, ITB's are recommended
megasquirt or similar
1mm Larger valves in this case get around 10-15rwkw more for around $350 set on top of the head work.

Conrods are not required for either engine for those power levels.

Depending on what condition your engines are in to begin with will change the cost of any machine work involved, and what hang ons are required (eg: bearings, timing belt, oil pump etc etc). Obviously if you started with a low klm non abused engine it would be substacially cheaper to do than a 300,000klm flogged and neglected engine.

Typically
To bore is usually around $200
Crank grind $200
Balance $200
Deck Block $150 (inluding dummy assy to measure)
to assemble something along these lines is usually around $6-800

Obviously there are other things to factor in (tuning costs etc), and because I've slapped this together I will have no doubt missed something, but you get the general idea.

Cheers
Woz

So to build your 1600 parts are around the $5500 mark
Tune $500-$1000
ITBs if you wanted them $1500-$2000
Block prep and build $1450
So that is a total of of around $7500-$8500 with ITBs with out $7000.
Also you would need a lighten flywheel a good clutch so another $1000.
So for around $8-$10k 100RWKW with the 1600?

So with the 1800
Build parts $2800-$3000
ECU $600 DIYPNP MS
Tune $500-$1000
Block prep and build $1450
ITBs if you wanted them $1500-$2000
So that is a total of of around $6500-$7500 with ITBs with out $5000-$5500.
Also you would need a lighten flywheel a good clutch so another $1000.
So for around $5-$7.5k 140-150RWHP with the 1800?

The 1800 seems like a much better option? What do you think Woz. Thanks for the brake of cost!
Pity you just can't bolt in the Duatec motor out of a NC eh!
Cheer Nigel

[sailaholic]

Pretty sure people in the USA have done the duratec swap.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[toppertee]

Pretty sure people in the USA have done the duratec swap.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

From what I've seen not a easy fit at all. Lots of custom work. Sub frame etc.

[wozzah1975]

100rwkw on a 1.6 requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 280-290 deg and around .380"-400 lift $1200 (these have recently gone up due to the billets I previously use being no longer available) Your HLA's will be fine if they have a good surface finish
Valve spring set $250
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper available online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
The inlet is a little comlicated on a 1.6, as it flows poorly std. To mod the original is around $450-500, or alternatively a ITB arrangment is preferable (more low/mid torque, and far better drivabilty)
Megasquirt or similar computer to manage it.
Larger valves will add another 10rwkw (approx) and will cost $350 on top of the cylinder head work
Reliable, and basically unbreako unless you do something really silly with it.

1.8, 140-150rwhp.
Requires

Cylinder head ported to suit $850-900 (also reco ready to bolt on)
Cams around 270 deg and .360-370" lift ($460 pair for my regrinds)
Cam gear set $195
Full Gasket set $280 (cheaper avail online ATM)
Hi comp pistons (10.5ish-1) $450-500
4-2-1 off the shelf extractor set $480
Once again, inlet manifold mods are required, ITB's are recommended
megasquirt or similar
1mm Larger valves in this case get around 10-15rwkw more for around $350 set on top of the head work.

Conrods are not required for either engine for those power levels.

Depending on what condition your engines are in to begin with will change the cost of any machine work involved, and what hang ons are required (eg: bearings, timing belt, oil pump etc etc). Obviously if you started with a low klm non abused engine it would be substacially cheaper to do than a 300,000klm flogged and neglected engine.

Typically
To bore is usually around $200
Crank grind $200
Balance $200
Deck Block $150 (inluding dummy assy to measure)
to assemble something along these lines is usually around $6-800

Obviously there are other things to factor in (tuning costs etc), and because I've slapped this together I will have no doubt missed something, but you get the general idea.

Cheers
Woz

So to build your 1600 parts are around the $5500 mark
Tune $500-$1000
ITBs if you wanted them $1500-$2000
Block prep and build $1450
So that is a total of of around $7500-$8500 with ITBs with out $7000.
Also you would need a lighten flywheel a good clutch so another $1000.
So for around $8-$10k 100RWKW with the 1600?

So with the 1800
Build parts $2800-$3000
ECU $600 DIYPNP MS
Tune $500-$1000
Block prep and build $1450
ITBs if you wanted them $1500-$2000
So that is a total of of around $6500-$7500 with ITBs with out $5000-$5500.
Also you would need a lighten flywheel a good clutch so another $1000.
So for around $5-$7.5k 140-150RWHP with the 1800?

The 1800 seems like a much better option? What do you think Woz. Thanks for the brake of cost!
Pity you just can't bolt in the Duatec motor out of a NC eh!
Cheer Nigel

Yes, parts add up with any build unfortunately no matter what sort of car taste you have. If you shop around parts like the ITB's can be gotten for much less than you stated. I do a lightened flywheel for $150-200 (DYO unit), and the clutch doesn't need to be over the top for those power figures. I would think around the $4-500 mark would see a more than adequate clutch.

In regard to the 1.6/1.8 choice, it will ultimately depend on what you're doing with it. As stated earlier in the thread class regulations put the 1.8 in with 2.0 capacity cars which can make it a struggle, buy yes, the 1.8 is better bang for buck if you're just looking at power figures.

The Duratec is a very good option with loads of potential (valve sizes are almost as big as my BP race engine in std form), but once again to convert it is an expensive exercise. I would imagine than it would be a $8-10000 conversion to have it purchased in and running correctly.

Cheers
Woz