How to ruin the handling of an MX5.by Norman H Gar

[Patrick Bramston]

I have been reading the Mazda Miata performance handbook by Norman h Garrett 111. he is a former Mazda Engeneer..miata project..he says pretty well anything you do to an Mx5 will make it handle WORSE..Wider/bigger wheels...Lowering...Sway bars...bigger brakes..big camber..almost anything you can think of...This might explain why Guran goes around corners quicker than anybody.. Norman says don't worry about body roll, it doesn't affect grip....he does say put grippier tyres on the stock rims though....

[marty085]

In that case, his book must be pretty short... 3 pages including contents?

[manga_blue]

Wider/bigger wheels...agree, increases unsprung mass, buggers grip
Lowering...agree, buggers camber geometry
Sway bars...huge agree, reduces grip and advantages of independent suspension
bigger brakes..agree, increases unsprung mass
big camber..agree, reducers grip, increases braking distances
almost anything you can think of...except springs

[gslender]

That would only be true when considering other compromises. Not a single race production car has the soft springs nor tyre patch he's recommending. In the context of a road going vehicle is would be correct, but on the track I don't buy it.

G

[Dweezle]

As crazy fast as Guran is, he is not going "around corners" quicker than everyone.
Quicker than anyone in a stock 1.6 mx5 he wins hands down!!!

What Bryan has accomplished with a stock mx5 is extraordinary but give him something as simple as a LSD and he is going to be quicker.
I would also be shocked if new suspension did not knock a bit of time off.

I would love to hear Bryans thoughts on what mods he believes would speed him up.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

[zero00]

Of course he would say that! Being part of the original team designing the MX5/Miata/Eunos there is no way he is going to say 'we could have done this/that/the other!! The car, to my way of thinking, wasn't specifically built for the track, but as an intelligent well handling touring roadster!

What would Mr Hyundai say now if he saw his 90's Excel belting around the tracks and BETTERING the times of most MX5's?? They are doing something they were never designed for and they defy the average mans thinking when on the track!! Also, like MX5's, they provide great racing!

[Regie]

As crazy fast as Guran is, he is not going "around corners" quicker than everyone.
Quicker than anyone in a stock 1.6 mx5 he wins hands down!!!

What Bryan has accomplished with a stock mx5 is extraordinary but give him something as simple as a LSD and he is going to be quicker.
I would also be shocked if new suspension did not knock a bit of time off.

I would love to hear Bryans thoughts on what mods he believes would speed him up.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

Bryan is now in the Clubman class....time for some mods now mate!!

[sailaholic]

Wider/bigger wheels...agree, increases unsprung mass, buggers grip
Lowering...agree, buggers camber geometry
Sway bars...huge agree, reduces grip and advantages of independent suspension
bigger brakes..agree, increases unsprung mass
big camber..agree, reducers grip, increases braking distances
almost anything you can think of...except springs

If seen you make similar comments before and others have noted your experience playing with springs ect... So what do you recommend as overall package?

At what point does it become under bared in terms of sway bars?

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[manga_blue]

Just heading off to wakie for a supersprints event today. i might come back to this in a couple of days. it's all a matter of balance between spring rates, sway thicknesses and chassis stiffness. in the meantime try googling sway bar removal on miataturbo.net and miata.net

[Patrick Bramston]

I believe Guran has the data logging to confirm his corner speeds.. Let's see if anyone can beat his corner speeds with so called performance modifications.. I.E wider wheels/lowered suspension/bigger brakes/harder springs/ aftermarket sway bars etc etc .. To be fair the tyres need to be similar...Could you help out with this Bryan...As a starting point I have the speeds for my turbo car on slicks at wakefield park..turn 1 190 ...turn2 94 ..turn3 120 ..turn 4 95 ..turn5 88 .....turn6 120 ..turn 7 69 fishhook... turn 8 95... turn 9 115.. and turn 10 66.. These are taken from MX5 domination on U tube. car is doing 105's..Patrick

[Sailor]

Of course Garrett would say this...He's the engineer...it's gotta be perfect.....Well at least a perfect compromise!

[lee]

For some people, the car is as much of a work of art as it is an incredibly well handling little car. I have a feeling the people who slam their cars and whack +0 offset wheels on know it's not going to make the car handle any better, but do it for the aesthetics.

I think the 'bigger wheel' argument is a hard one to defend. The 15"s I have on mine are 0.2kg heaver per corner, which is probably offset by the weight of the tyres. The 15"s I'm getting are more than a kilo lighter per corner, which if anything will make the car handle significantly better.

[Jeo]

From the session I borrowed Guran's performance box at a Wakefield club day, he also gave me his reference lap from that day. Stock car on Star Specs for Guran, BP swapped NA6 with coilovers, bracing, 15x8 wheels, and RSR's for me. Comparing my best lap from that session (1:14.69) with his (1:16.39) - I was faster mid corner on every corner; he was braking later, getting on the power earlier and was using more of the track. I have absolutely no doubt that Guran (and many others) could go faster in my car, and that I couldn't get close to his time in his.

Look to people like Hellmun for thoughts on what a car with a relatively stock engine but lots of suspension work can do.

[Basho]

Whilst acknowledging that many modifications have a trade of of one kind or another that is considerably bigger than the benefit delivered and more than a few belonging right in the 'this is a scam ' box I find it difficult to believe that all are unecessary time and money wasters.

I don't race/track my car so I cannot put forward a valid case there but on the street I can for coilovers , I have recently installed Tein SS and after a fair amount of fiddling have finaly got them set and quite simply the ride is simply better in all aspects, including NVH , faster ? I don't know , but better than OE--definately.

I also wonder could the perfect 'as is' statement also perhaps be missing the qualifier 'at the OE levels of NVH' ? or is this staement made only in reference to track capabilities ?

If this is an overall statement (perfect 'as is') perhaps someone might take the genius designers aside and explain to them the aesthetic relationship that is pleasing to view between the wheel and its location and it's relationship to and with the wheel arch and the rest of the vehicle in general.

I can't begin to list how many vehicles they've got this 'off ' on.

[Zcootz]

"Perfect as is" also needs to be qualified with the price the car is sold for. I doubt the engineer would keep the car the same if it was to be sold in the $100k bracket.