Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

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manga_blue
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Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby manga_blue » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:09 am

There's a bit of a pattern developing for early failure of unbranded Toyota COP sets on ebay this year.

jerrah wrote:Note for those using the 'generic' coils. I have a set of the ebay ones and one has failed within 1000km.

I've called a few wreckers and genuine 2nd hand Toyota ones seem pretty easy to get around the $100 mark.

Toyota/Denso part numbers:

90080-19015
90919-02239
90080-19023
90919-02234

manga_blue wrote:Yes, One of my ebay ones just failed too at around 1,000km.

rascal wrote:I also started with generic ones off ebay and one failed within the first 50km.
Went to the wreckers and bought 4 second hand toyota ones and haven't had any further issues in 12mths and 3000km, which included 10 track days..


Genuine ones seem to be the go. Jerrah's given the part numbers. They should be branded like this:
Image
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spikes
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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby spikes » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:23 am

Silly question, but do you have dwell control? Whether Toyota or non-Toyota, without correct dwell timing, they will overheat and fail.

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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby manga_blue » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:35 am

No, I'm using a Mazda ECU but without anything to step up the traditionally low voltage at the coils resulting from under-done Mazda wiring. By my reading of this I should be safe anyway.
The dwell should be set as follows:
8V 6.3 ms
9V 5.3 ms
10V 4.4 ms
11V 3.8 ms
12V 3.2 ms
13V 2.7 ms
14V 2.4 ms
15V 2.2 ms
MoTeC Research Centre
Melbourne, Australia.

Source: http://www.motec.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=374

I think Rascal has set dwell on his Adaptronic.
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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby spikes » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:56 am

1.6 or 1.8? I'm not too familiar into the voltages vs rpm vs dwell times but afaik, the longer dwell times on a stock ECU overcharges the coils..

think about it this way..

a shorter dwell time means the less time the coils charge up before the coils fire. So lets say a COP only requires 2.2ms before it fires, as opposed to a 5.5ms of a stock 1.6 coil pack. So in theory, the longer dwell times will overheat the coils to a point where they fail. Well basically in a nutshell anyways.

I've known Toyota COPs to run 3.3ms of dwell and be fine, but on a 1.6 ECU, it seems to be too much.

PS, the abovementioned dwell times are probably not correct, I was just using them as examples.

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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby manga_blue » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:20 am

Spikes, I'm on shaky ground here as far as my understanding goes. From my distributor tuning days I know that dwell is when the points are closed and it's the period in which the coil is given the opportunity to build charge before the next spark. To my mind it follows that dwell time in an EFI system is a coded recovery time for a coilpack. The lower the voltage at the coil then the longer the dwell time required for the coils to build spark again.

Mine is an NA8 on a stock ECU, at least as far as dwell is concerned. Others have measured the voltage at NA8 coilpacks at around 9V and the dwell time at around 4.0ms. According to Motec's table that says to me that there's not quite enough punch to fully recharge the coils between sparks but at least they're being understressed. So it follows that if the ebay coils are failing so early then it's because they're crap.
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rascal
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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby rascal » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am

I have an adaptronic ecu in my car and dwell was set correctly when my COPS were installed.

Generic cop failed halfway to work on its first long run. so 50-60km of driving on a freeway.
Had to drive it to wreckers 25km away on 3 cylinders which isnt fun. (sounded like a subey, and not in a good way)
Bought 4 2nd hand cops off 2000 corolla and swapped over in carpark. Car ran perfect from then on, and still good now, a year later..

I do remember seeing the ebay vendor offering free swapover replacements for any faulty ones a few months later so he obviously found that some were from a dud batch as well. Not sure if he is still selling them now

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Re: Bit of a warning on dodgy ebay COPS

Postby droo » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:46 pm

I'd like to share my experience with the eBay coils.
I purchased mine from PureMX5 via the similarly named ebay store. The coilpacks were also generic.

I built my loom and plugged the cops in, and lo- my roadster started.
I built my dwell circuit the same night and plugged it in with the cops, and lo- my roadster started..

I've been driving about mostly issue free ever since.
The only issue i've had was an inability to start on cold mornings (guessing the battery was likely below 12-13 volts, and insufficient for the dwell circuit to work properly?) but i've since made a startup bypass of the dwell circuit and the car starts flawlessly first time every time of a cold morning (only experience with weather temps so far until summer comes)..

After 200km continuous driving (2.5hrs mostly 110 highway) the coilpacks are only warm to the touch, much MUCH cooler then the rocker cover.

On one trip to melbourne to The Garage restaurant in July, my test wiring between the bypass circuit and dwell reducer had slightly disconnected, causing me to run only 2 cylinders. By bypassing the dwell circuit entirely (keeping my bypass circuit on), i was able to drive.
Knowing full well the dwell circuit reduces the dwell time i was completely and nervously aware that with the alternator providing 13 volts to the engine (and i'm powering my cops directly from an alternator battery positive) would mean the COPs would be getting the standard roadster ECU dwell time - too much for the COPs in the long term. I pulled over after 50km of driving. I checked the temp of the COPs by touching them and literally burnt my finger. Without the dwell circuit reducing the pulse timing they were insanely hot, and my finger took over a week to heal.
(I was rushed, a little stressed from the vehicle breakdown, on a deadline getting to the city and know i should have been less clumsy about it..)


I then checked bypass circuit, saw that the connector had unseated itself (and i'm usually overly conservatively VERY careful about these testing mods and normally secure such things well).. Restarting the engine worked fine (running on all cylinders).
Immense relief and i continued driving. Another 40km down the highway, i rechecked the COPs temps and they had cooled down immensely.

Keep in mind, as a generalisation, most electronics (and the electronics in the head of the COPs) reliability reduces 50% per multiple "25 degrees" over it's designed operating temp. Having them overheat for any extended period is going to cause all sorts of stress and temp loading on the COPs components.

The story here, you *NEED* the dwell-reducer on a stock ECU.
Not having the dwell reducer will overheat the COPs and they will fail. It's not a matter of if

"It won't hippen over night, but will hippen.."

The Genuine Toyota components may have an over temperature function which might reduce the power of the spark, thereby reducing the operating temperature, who knows?!
I'm hazarding a realworld guess that the generic ones definitely don't have that function.

I've now dríven well over 3500km on my setup since i've built it late June, and aside from the, now fixed, cold start issue i had, no other glitches have occur. Incidently i've now clocked just shy of a 1000km since the bypass issue incident i had.

I'm also running my spark plug gaps at 1.2mm (to experiment some other settings) for the past 3 weeks, again, no issues in starting, COP operating temps, or driveability on any driving (city stop/start or highway) etc.

Again, I'm just sharing my experience.


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