Guran's NA6 "Little Reddy"

[Guran]

Very excited that my entry in the Victorian 6 Hour Regularity Relay at Phillip Island on 4/5 August has been accepted. I'm teamed up with Kevin Addison, Ian Caldwell and Bob Gage in MX-5 Club of NSW - Team NA. Phillip Island in mid-winter? I'm expecting rain and will drive down on my Star Specs - though I'll probably take the R888s just in case the weather is unusually kind. Either way, it'll be a fantastic weekend.

This weekend is the MX-5 Club supersprint/trackday double-header at Wakefield Park. I'll be driving down on Sunday morning and staying overnight with a bunch of other club members. Dinner on Sunday night should be fun as usual. I'm really excited about renewing competition with Stewart Temesvary in his NB8A. He'll be doing both days, with old D03Gs on Sunday and street tyres on Monday. Last time we competed at Wakefield Park in October 2011, Stewart pipped me by a mere 0.03s ... and that tiny gap turned out to be the difference between 2nd and 3rd place in Type 1 for the supersprint season. This is going to be an excellent challenge!

Lastly, tonight is another important milestone for the fledgling Illawarra Chapter of the MX-5 Club of NSW. Our sub-committee will be having a dinner meeting at the Illawarra Brewery (aka Five Islands Brewery) to plan a list of events, identify organisers, and (most importantly) elect a Convenor. If that goes to plan, we'll then request formal recognition of the Illawarra Chapter at the next Club Committee meeting on 13th June. Getting close now!

[Smokinscotty]

Best of luck in the 6 hour!
Big fan of these events, my parents used to do the AROCA one at Eastern Creek!
Hopefully I'll join the team one year, I'd love to do one.

[Guran]

3rd June 2012

NSW Supersprint Round 3 - Wakefield Park

The MX-5 Club of NSW showcased another great event for the NSW Supersprint Championship for the 77 drivers in attendance. The forecast was for rain, rain and more rain. I've heard that before and packed the R-specs just in case! Glad I did because the rain stayed away, and I had the opportunity to run in my new R888s. Every car was caked in mud before even entering the track: some roadworks on Braidwood Road saw to that.

Run 1 started with a wet track from the overnight rain. It was bitterly cold too; 9°C but the wind chill dropped the apparent temperature to 1°C . I started on the Star Specs and it was very skatey. Was held up behind a conga line of slower cars and didn't get a clear lap (1:29.7847). I did manage a couple of minor excursions onto the mud at turns 4, 5 and 9. Come to think of it, that's the first time I've spun off at turn 9. Now the only corner I've yet to spin off is turn 1 - not planning to either, as the armco is very threatening there.


A little excursion at turn 4 by Tiit Saul, on Flickr

The track was much drier for Run 2, although trickles of water persisted all day in the fishhook and on the apex of turn 10, which compromised my exit speed from both corners. Still on the Star Specs, I improved to 1:17.4522. Definitely time to try the R888s.


Toyo R888s ready to go by Tiit Saul, on Flickr

The R888s had not even been on the car before, so I eased them in during Run 3. My time improved a little to 1:17.2764. Adjusted the hot pressures to 34psi for the next go, which is where I've found the RE55S Bridgestones worked best for me.


Entering turn 5 by Tiit Saul, on Flickr

Run 4 was frustratingly no better with a fractionally slower lap of 1:17.2951. The R888s squealed like a pig and didn't inspire confidence. They were also barely warm at the end, so I dropped the pressure again to 32psi.

I pushed a bit harder on Run 5 and scraped out another slight improvement to 1:16.9310. The trickle of water at turn 10 was a real pain and I experimented with a couple different lines. In the end, I settled for a slightly earlier apex than normal, with a bit of oversteer until it understeered through the water, and then gripped up and oversteered again. It was an interesting ride! The tyres were still struggling to get heat into them, so dropped again to 31psi.

Run 6 was the last for the day and I gave it a red hot go, yet the best I could do was 1:16.7950 ... almost two seconds slower than my PB on R-specs. Not happy Jan. At least I was consistent with two other laps of 1:16.8547 and 1:16.8298. By the end, the front-left tyre was very badly grained (too cold before I started sliding on them), and understeer set in.



Verdict: I'm not at all impressed with these R888s. Manga_blue has assured me that they need a heat cycle or two before they come good, and may need very low pressures to get them warmed up. I bloody hope so because I was almost ready to hurl the damn things at the end of this day. Never had this problem with the Bridgestones.

No surprise that I finished well down the order in Class 1B with the following guys ahead of me:
Alex Ball, Lotus Elise 111R, 1:10.000
Glenn Thomas, NB8B, 1:15.638
Tony Chan, Celica, 1:15.663
Stewart Temesvary, NB8A, 1:15.691

At least the MX-5 Club did well in the pointscore moving further ahead with 309 points to ARDC on 236, and NSWRRC on 214.

After a full day at the track, we checked into the Bakehouse Motel for the night. The teams for the Phillip Island 6hr defrosted in front of the fire at the Bakehouse to talk about how the event works and discuss what we needed to organise for it. Then it was off to Tattersalls Hotel for a few beers and a steak with all the MX-5 Club crew. Great night!

[Aussie Stig]

That's one hot Celica.

[Smokinscotty]

In my tyre shopping I noticed the F sport (Kumho motorsport tyre) website has some good info on heat cycling.
Interesting to hear that about the R888, I kinda expected more. Thanks for sharing, I was certain I was going to buy a set... Now not so sure.

[PeterB]

Bryan

Our driving styles on fresh R888s on Sunday were similar, but I was probably not throwing it around as much, so there may be two differences.

I am running 2.2 degrees neg on the front and 1.8 neg at the back with springs and bars so maybe the tyres are better planted and build up a more consistent temperature on a cold track, compared to the performance of a more road spec suspension. I usually run 32 psi hot.

The main difference was that I ran the R888s on a twisty section of road for about 15 km when I first fitted them - say 3 km quickish then a short cool down and so on. Not as good as bedding in on the track, but it seemed to scrub them in some. Then I drove to Goulburn on them up a back road for another 100 km, and drove them to the track so they had some core temperature before the day started. I used the first couple of sessions to bed in a bit more before getting into it. On Sunday I had no graining and had plenty of grip by days end.

My times came down consistently through the day 1.28.8, 1.16.6, 1.15.9, 1.15.6, 1.15.2, 1.15.1 with my vey last lap being my best of the day and I think without the water I would have been around my pb. The R888s did not show any graining.

However on Monday I got straight into it from lap 1 without any warm-up (my first lap was 1.16.2), and the left hand rear did show similar graining to yours. The front did not grain up, but the car was walking around in the rear a lot.

I wonder if the issue with R888s with full tread, on a cold/wet day, is that the surface rubber moves a lot and gets hot (and cools) quickly, but the tyre does not get any real temperature into the core, so the surface rubber grains up.

Maybe a run up Macquarie Pass or Jamberoo alternately getting some real heat in the tyres, then having a cool down, may bring the tyres in better before the next run. We may also need to allow a bit more warm up time on a wet track to really bring them in?

[Guran]

Thanks for the feedback Peter. It does seem like the R888s need to be treated with care to bring them in. For the record, here is what they look like after their first outing at Wakefield Park.


Front Left / Front Right

Rear Left / Rear Right

[Hellmun]

The front left definitely got hot and overpressurized as its only got wrinkles on the centre. I find that new semi-slicks are usually at least a second off the pace, they overheat too quickly so you get a very small amount of time with them happy. Also they're gooey when new, remember they make them in a mould and until you run them on the car hot you don't align the rubber. So under the surface of brand new tyres they're moving around a lot. Alignment of the rubber molecules and removing the mould release compound are why you should wear in the semi's first. Plus if you drive them too hard before this happens you'll break a lot of the molecular chains which will make the rubber easier to tear. Easily teared rubber will make the tyre grip less and wear quickly. I learnt this the hard way with my A048's... they were terrible and lasted a whole 5 trackdays..only the first one having any grip at all. Now I always break in all my tyres before going to the track. I have a great book that goes through tyre design, construction and motorsport examples.. I just think one of my mates took it with him to QLD... if I get it back you should take a read.

[Guran]

Thanks Mark. Actually immediately after the last run, I stopped in pit lane to check the front left tyre: it was barely warm in the middle of the tread, and only the outside shoulder was hot ... maybe 50C. My theory is that it grained because it wasn't hot enough before I started sliding it. Anyway, do you think that front left is wrecked, or will it come good once the graining is worn off?

[Guran]

4th June 2012

MX-5 Club of NSW Track Day

After the frustrations of dealing with my R888s at the Supersprint, it was a great relief to swap back to the Star Specs for the club trackday. The forecast heavy rain didn't eventuate (not in Goulburn anyway), so 69 drivers enjoyed another cold, dry day and the sun even poked through the clouds occasionally. Impressive turn out for a Monday too.

I had a bit of traffic on Run 1 (1:17.76) and a scary moment too. I slid wide onto the dirt exiting turn 5 and rejoined the track slowly at the far left of turn 6. In my mirrors, I could see Ian Vickers' NB8A coming through turn 5, but he ran wide in turn 6. Lucky I saw and heard him coming, and I made a very quick exit to avoid being cleaned up by his sliding car. Ian was very apologetic afterwards.



I spent the first couple laps of Run 2 getting past slower cars and then landed a 1:16.67. The next lap was yellow flagged because Ian Vickers lodged himself in the gravel trap at turn 2, and I finished with a 1:16.86 while still taking it easier than usual in turn 2.

My third run was one of the best I've ever had. I had a nice clear track and put in five very consistent laps: 1:16.86, 1:16.34, 1:16.85, 1:16.75, 1:16.78. That 1:16.34 lap was 0.02s faster than my PB (1:16.36 set on 8th April 2012 at NatMeet), so it was also a marginal improvement on the Class 1 record. Here's the video:



I then put my Performance Box in Joe Craddy's NA so he could have a play with it. My Run 4 (still before lunch!) was a slow one as I followed Lindsay Burke around and got some great video of his laps. I probably could have overtaken him if I really wanted to, but having already set a new PB, I relaxed a bit and just had some fun. I was also well ahead of Stewart Temesvary at this stage, which made up for the thrashing I copped yesterday.

After lunch, Rob Young insisted I have a drive in his modified NC - an offer I wasn't about to turn down. Started with a couple laps in the 1:14s while negotiating slower traffic and learning the car; then my third lap was 1:12.19 (1:12.08 according to my Performance Box)! That's actually my fastest ever timed lap at Wakefield Park (was probably quicker driving Hellmun's car but it wasn't timed). The last lap was quicker again and on target for a high 1:11 ... until I fluffed the shift into 3rd at the fishhook, so it ended at 1:12.24. Thanks Rob - your car is a fantastic drive. That lap was enough for 3rd in Class 7 but I was relieved that my name was left off the final results - Russell, Rob, Peter, etc didn't deserve to lose championship points.

With people dropping out in the afternoon, we were given up to 7 laps in Run 6. I had a bit of traffic to negotiate again and seemed to be stuck in the 1:17.0s. Then on the last lap I managed a 1:16.47. It was 1:16.40 on my timer, so it could well have been another PB at the discretion of the timer's keyboard finger. Ah well. Little did I know that Stewart Temesvary had pulled out a miraculous 1:16.26 in his 5th run, to beat me by 0.08s (we're not in the same championship class - it's just a personal rivalry )! It was one of only three 1:16 laps he did, whereas I had 8 laps in the 1:16s. The cheeky bugger!

The last run of the day was declared "non-timed" so we were allowed to take out passengers . This is a rarity at our club trackdays. I offered Mitchell Bennett the passenger seat in my NA6 and he seemed to enjoy the experience. No official timing, but my timer spat out consistent 1:18.1s and a best of 1:17.99 . Not too shabby for a stock NA6 with a passenger.

Another MX-5 Club double-header at Wakefield Park done, and another perfect example of a job very well done by Mike Hicks and his team of keen volunteers. Thank you to all who helped out.

[Hellmun]

I doubt there would be any damage at all, it was far too cold a day. I ruined my A048's on a very hot trackday at Winton a long time ago. Your front left would've been hotter than 50C though out there, when it's so cold the track is cold to touch the tyre temps drop dramatically. I should do some more data analysis with the orange TPMS and infrared gun but between fishhook and not cooling down into the pits I see a 5 degree temperature change on the TPMS (that's really rim temp, not tyre temp so would move less). I'd expect the surface temp would have a much more significant change and I did that test on a hot day.... on a cold day I'd expect a huge change (80-90 - 50C maybe). To wrinkle the rubber it must've been soft and 50C is only warm. I do expect to see some wrinkling though on new tyres and just consider it a sign to use a little caution. With the A050's before we went to PI I was doing 2 flying laps, 1 cooldown and then 2 flying laps because they wrinkled up a lot on the first hot session.

I wouldn't expect to ever get your peak RE55S grip on the R888's though, I found R888's quite a bit harder on the set I used a LONG time ago which were medium equivalent (GG? ). RE55S's are amazing if you push hard enough to get them hot in SR2... I only run the kumho's because I keep getting them cheap . Plus they are a very competitive sprint tyre. I think the A050's were slightly grippier overall and Ralph seems to be loving them. I really wanted RE55S's myself for the wakefield 300 last year but they only imported 4 sets in 225/50/15 last year and they were spoken for in Melbourne before Gordon Leven could get them transferred up . Not to mention they were $380 ea and you can't really shop around. No-one in the US seems to have them and they were just as expensive in the UK when postage is factored in.

[Guran]

I doubt there would be any damage at all, it was far too cold a day. I ruined my A048's on a very hot trackday at Winton a long time ago. Your front left would've been hotter than 50C though out there, when it's so cold the track is cold to touch the tyre temps drop dramatically. I should do some more data analysis with the orange TPMS and infrared gun but between fishhook and not cooling down into the pits I see a 5 degree temperature change on the TPMS (that's really rim temp, not tyre temp so would move less). I'd expect the surface temp would have a much more significant change and I did that test on a hot day.... on a cold day I'd expect a huge change (80-90 - 50C maybe). To wrinkle the rubber it must've been soft and 50C is only warm. I do expect to see some wrinkling though on new tyres and just consider it a sign to use a little caution. With the A050's before we went to PI I was doing 2 flying laps, 1 cooldown and then 2 flying laps because they wrinkled up a lot on the first hot session.

Well that's a relief! I really thought that one tyre was buggered. Hopefully a few brisk Sunday drives will settle them in.

I wouldn't expect to ever get your peak RE55S grip on the R888's though, I found R888's quite a bit harder on the set I used a LONG time ago which were medium equivalent (GG? ). RE55S's are amazing if you push hard enough to get them hot in SR2... I only run the kumho's because I keep getting them cheap . Plus they are a very competitive sprint tyre. I think the A050's were slightly grippier overall and Ralph seems to be loving them. I really wanted RE55S's myself for the wakefield 300 last year but they only imported 4 sets in 225/50/15 last year and they were spoken for in Melbourne before Gordon Leven could get them transferred up . Not to mention they were $380 ea and you can't really shop around. No-one in the US seems to have them and they were just as expensive in the UK when postage is factored in.

See that's what I find strange. I was told by the Toyo Technical Manager that R888 GG are softer than RE55S SR2! I agree with you that the RE55S is an amazing tyre - it definitely performed well for me and I never had any problems with getting them up to temperature (except at Eastern Creek North Circuit). However, the RE55S is not being imported anymore and has been replaced by the RE11S (different to RE11 which is S-spec). I was quoted $340 each for 185/60R14 , which is why I ended up with R888.

[Guran]

Had a chat with Mike Hicks at the committee meeting last night. He's currently re-evaluating the classes for our club trackdays with an eye on the 2012/13 season which starts on 29th July. Looks like my days are over in Class 1 at club trackdays. He'd like me to have a go in another class to give some other drivers a chance in Class 1. I'm cool with it - was expecting it given that last year he moved Mark and Steve out of modified NB for the same reasons. Heads up to Phil A and Ralph ... your days in modified NC are over too. The biggest downside of shifting all our quickest drivers into tougher classes is that it'll effectively guarantee a win for the VICs in the NSW/VIC Interstate Challenge . Not sure if Mike has considered that.

So ... do I go with Class 4 (Clubman) or Class 5 (Modified NA6)? I also need to balance this against what I do with Supersprints, where I currently enter my Class 1A car (standard <1.6L) in Class 1B (standard <2.0L) because there are not enough entrants for 1A - so I'm not particularly competitive in that class. In Class 4, I'd use Star Specs and run against John Karayannis, Allan Cruz, Brad Carpenter, etc; whereas in Class 5 I would use R-specs (extra cost) and run against Peter Browning and a few other guys who're improving their times. Based on all the 2011/12 results to date, I've calculated that I would have finished 2nd in either Class 4 or Class 5, but it would have been much closer in Class 5. Then, do I take the plunge and start modifying my NA6??? Or do I sell Little Reddy and pick up a high km stock NC on the cheap, which would be much more competitive at Supersprints and put me into a different class at club trackdays? Decisions decisions!

[Sailor]

Heh heh...another drive of an NC might cement that decision

On another point, I really don't mind having the hares out in front of Mod NC.
I'm in it for the fun not the trophy and having Phil and Ralph up there to aim at is IMHO a good thing.

[Hellmun]

If you want to be competitive at super sprints I'd go mod NA . Clubman will handi-cap you greatly due to no equivalent class. NC will do well right up until one of the many performance derived 2.0 cars comes and plays (As you've seen with Exige, S2000, Integra Type R, Civic Type R etc). Plus Tony Williams will keep getting faster... that car is quick, I was being super cautious driving it on the brakes the day I did 1:12:99 to ensure I didn't cause him a flatspot. I feel confident that car would do 11's easily... then eventually 10's.

If you'd enjoy modifying and re-learning to drive as the car evolves then NA will be fun and it's going to be competitive, as you've previously worked out there aren't many 1.6's that would overwhelm an Mx5. That said it won't be at the pointy end immediately...and it's a LOT of work making modified cars go forwards, even after you installed *upgrades* they often involve driver changes or setup changes. Plus there will be many compromises in race track use...really hard to get away from noise when you need good flow. Though that said how much fun did you have in my loud and overly stiff underpowered car . Within the rules you could get more power out of the 1.6 engine than I had (Tony already does) so if you could get it to stop equivalently it should go fast..it should already corner faster due to less weight.

Otherwise get the NC, replace the plastic bits in the gearbox and go racing immediately and be competitive on both sides.... On the bright side you get a REALLY nice daily driver and it's a massive amount less work having the same adjustability you have now (alignment and tyres?). On the bad side as stated before it could be impossible annihilated by many other sports cars. The amount of books, research and analysis I did trying to get my car competitive with Rex Hodder was quite incredible.... but only got within 1.5s at it's best. You simply cannot beat a car that started at 800kg, has more power and gets better standard parts than you can modify to.

For me it would come down to whether you want to modify the car or not? Whether you want a quiet nice daily driver when it's not racing?