MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Discussion regarding Turbocharged and supercharged MX-5s

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby lizard » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:29 am

NitroDann wrote:I skimmed the replies but basically im going to be blunt old a hole Dann...

You NEED an ecu. The fact is that the stock one only delivers so much fuel. And then thats it, and on top of that if you add extra air the fuel it adds, not only stops pretty fast, its not the right amount and the car will be a dog.

No 2 ways about it.

The ecu is the nicest, least expensive, most powerful, best fuel efficiency zero stuff around part you can add to an SE.

Sorry, thats the answer if you want a real performance gain and stock drivability, efficiency, reliability and want it to just work properly.

No 2 ways about it, thats it.

Dann





Im not doubting your suggestion Dann and I'm taking you advice seriously but why isn't the ECU upgrade mentioned more often in posts where as the CIA inter cooler and exhaust is ?

What performance could be expected with the ECU upgrade and where and who could do this in Sydney ? While Im at it what brand and where from


Thanks in advance





Think I found part of my question answered here


bear2230 wrote:Ok, Here is the end result for anyone that is interested.
This was using Deatchwerks 600cc injectors (Thanks Vic, Champion) and the target was 160rwkw.
Boost is 12psi and we couldn’t go anymore without upgrading to a larger fuel pump. Another $200.00 but I will stick with this for now. He did say though if I am going to track it, to upgrade the pump before I do.
Installed by Colin at Ricol after CT recommendations and I couldn’t be happier.
The car is transformed, perfectly smooth and scary fast. For me anyway. He did a great job.
Standard was 121rwkw as I had taken off the T-Piece mod about 6 months ago. I got him to do a before and after run for comparison.
Total was around $2400.00 for the ECU, loom, and fit and tune.

I couldn’t recommend him highly enough if anyone else is thinking about an ECU and is around St George area.
The shop was full of Silvias. I had to cringe.

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby NitroDann » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:54 pm

That says it all doesnt it?

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speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Lokiel » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:33 pm

The SP reacted so well to the ECU upgrade because it already had a decent intake, exhaust and turbo. The SE has a crappy+restrictive intake, matched exhaust and tiny turbo - adding an ECU alone may net you an additional 10-15kw.

Most people wont recommend an ECU first because it's expensive compared to other options but, if you're a tinkerer who continually modifies their car, it's the best option since you can tune the car properly to handle each successive mod.

Improved breathing is one of the best mods you can do for your car performance-wise and is usually cheap.

The OEM "snorkel" is tiny and restricts the amount of air that the turbo can inhale which is why a CAI allows your car to make so much more power and should be your first mod. I've read quotes that people have dynoed their car just with an AEM intake and get 135rwkw. Based on my own experience, the PO had already installed a FM downpipe, when I installed my AEM CAI the difference in power was phenomenal and I don't doubt the 135rwkw claim based on the "butt dyno" and adrenalin rush. This mod produces the biggest power gain, the car remains driveable and will keep you happy for a while.

For optimum breathing, you will need to increase the size of your exhaust since with the CAI, the turbo will generate more exhaust gas which the OEM exhaust is no longer capable of exhausting properly. Upgrading to a 2.5" or 3" exhaust is therefore the 2nd step to improved breathing but you wont really notice the difference in power via the "butt dyno" (well I didn't) but the dyno revealed I now had 147rwkw.

Once you've upgraded your exhaust, and increased you boost to over 9.5psi, you'll discover that the car is no longer "factory smooth" and when boosting there will be a stutter between 4500rpm and 5000rpm before boost comes back on. This is a factory ECU issue, the ECU is running outside of its configured parameters and between these rpm ranges, it switches from closed to open loop and doesn't deliver enough fuel which is why you feel the "boost cut". FM have an O2 mod, see http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=4536&parentid=0&stocknumber=07-46300, which helped me overcome this issue but some people report that it does nothing for them - I also had the Boost Cut Bypass mod (see http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11873.0.html) so that probably helped too.

At this stage, you car WILL be running lean which is dangerous (I dynoed my car with these mods and that's exactly what I found, as was reported by others). To overcome this I upgraded to 305cc injectors since theoretically they would deliver more fuel. The car liked that a lot better but when cold it would "cough and fart" a bit until it warmed up, then it was fine.

After having a ride in MINX's car just after he had his Haltech installed, I realised how "far-from-smooth" my car really was and I installed the Adaptronic e440 which has almost restored me back to OEM "factory-smoothness" (still gets occasional hiccups).

The O2 mod and boost cut mods are only hacks to overcome the limitations of the factory ECU. Once you start modding your car to perform way beyond the ECU's configured limits, you will either need an aftermarket ECU or for a cheaper option, get your ECU reflashed/re-chipped by Chiptorque. Crapweasel has had his ECU reflashed after insalling an AEM CAI and 2.5" exhaust (still has the 265cc injectors I think) and is very happy with the result, it's pumping out 152rwkw. If you use the same modz as Crapweasel, you "should" just be able to get Chiptorque to use his settings on your car (every car is different so it may not be that simple).

The overall cheapest and most efficient option is to do your intake+exhaust modz, upgrade your injectors if you want more than 152rwkw, and get Chiptorque to reflash/re-chip your ECU (you should take your car to them so that they can get the tuning done right the first time - guys in the US do this via BEGi; they send them their ECU, it gets re-flashed/re-chipped and sent back to them. If it works great, otherwise they may need to send it back and forth a few times to get the tuning right because everyone's car is different and may have different modz - if you stick to Crapweasels's modz, you "should" be able to use his settings).

Aftermarket ECU's are the better option if you plan to continually upgrade your car or wish to use E85 down the track since a tuner can tune your car directly to accommodate each mod. The re-flash option is better if you just want to get the car to a certain level and keep it running there happily.

I suspect that most OEM SE owners would be happy with the CAI+Exhaust+Chiptorque reflash combination since that will yield ~152rwkw which is around the same value as most of us get on dynos here in Queensland with the OEM turbo.
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Tony » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:39 pm

Daniel Deckers arguably knows more about turbo MX5s than just about anyone else. As well as being the Dynotronics dealer in Sydney; he can fabricate an exhaust, air box etc as well as tune/reflash your ECU. He's in Padstow on Fairford Rd just off the Motorway.

http://deckspeedracing.com.au/index.html
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby NitroDann » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:54 pm

The fact of the matter is that airflow is power. Nothing else.
Every mod you do, you do to get more air into the engine.
The better job you do at getting air in, the more you stuff the tune, This is dangerous for the engine, gives poor economy and drivability, and its counterproductive for chasing power.

The aem is just a pod filter.
Any shop can do an exhaust for 700, 950 with a cat.
And a boost controller can be had to 50 bucks max.

This is the point you need for any proper increase in power, 1100 odd worth of gear BUT..
Now you have done enough to get more airflow you NEED an ecu. So do it first, add a pod filter and manual boost controller and a (fuel pressure reg while on the dyno and go make 175rwkw with drivability and economy.

The tune is the one part you have to have to do it right. Without it you are only pretending to make power.

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Smokinscotty » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Did a similar thing in the skyline, fitted a fmic kit and a pod filter and the cat back and the boost tee+ gauge.
While it did feel a little quicker (or just sounded faster) it never ran as smooth or drivable as it did stock, was coughed and farted alot in street driving.

Tunable ecu will ensure you get your moneys worth from all the cheap mods. If your going to mod it, your going to need one soon enough anyway when you want it to behave like you've touched nothing, but with more punch.
So lets go!

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby MINX » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:05 pm

Lots of good reading on mazdaspeed (same as our SEs)
similar debate here
http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26146.0.html
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby lizard » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Ok to condense 2 pages you need the lot get all done at the same time and keep $3000 up you sleeve just in-case!?

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Regie » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:31 pm

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=53084

AEM intake for sale :)
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Lokiel » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:45 pm

lizard wrote:Ok to condense 2 pages you need the lot get all done at the same time and keep $3000 up you sleeve just in-case!?


No!

Get the CAI, exhaust and MBC mods done at your own pace. If you keep boost at/under 9.5psi you should have no issues - it's a good idea to install a boost gauge to ensure this. These modz will put a big smile on your face for a while and net you around 140-145rwkw.

When you're ready for the ECU and more power, buy it and allow $600 or so for the tune. Buy larger injectors too and bump your boost (12psi is safe, some go as high as 14psi but I'm too much of a "fraidy-cat" to test that one). With a stock turbo, you're looking at about 157rwkw max at 12psi.

- of course if you can do it all in one hit, that's the best way to do it but I suspect that like me, it's easier to do it bit-by-bit.
Last edited by Lokiel on Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby NitroDann » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:46 pm

Isnt the rally car making 175rwkw?

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby MINX » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:08 pm

The Std ECU is the real limiting factor with the SE
Buy a good ECU and then Upgrade exhaust and Intake down the track
I did this with the rally car with a Straight 2 1/2" pipe System it made 145KW on STD Boost
Now making 168KW on E85 on STD boost


Would love to know how this works????
Must be a generous dyno :shock:
How can it suddenly be making that much power on "STD boost" ?? (7psi)

Please tell me why? have i wasted thousands on ecu, tuning, injectors, zorzt, intake etc etc and only have 157kwatw ?

And the little ihi is definitely running out of puff at 11-12psi
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby dude04 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:19 pm

MINX wrote:
The Std ECU is the real limiting factor with the SE
Buy a good ECU and then Upgrade exhaust and Intake down the track
I did this with the rally car with a Straight 2 1/2" pipe System it made 145KW on STD Boost
Now making 168KW on E85 on STD boost


Would love to know how this works????
Must be a generous dyno :shock:
How can it suddenly be making that much power on "STD boost" ?? (7psi)

Please tell me why? have i wasted thousands on ecu, tuning, injectors, zorzt, intake etc etc and only have 157kwatw ?

And the little ihi is definitely running out of puff at 11-12psi


I made even more kw on standard boost. my SE had aem cai, oldguy fuel cut mod, de-cat and ebay intercooler and made 151kw on the unigroup dyno.

...this just proves that each dyno is different.

edit: I definitely agree that the standard ecu should be one of the first mods on an SE.

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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby Russellb » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:47 pm

MINX wrote:
The Std ECU is the real limiting factor with the SE
Buy a good ECU and then Upgrade exhaust and Intake down the track
I did this with the rally car with a Straight 2 1/2" pipe System it made 145KW on STD Boost
Now making 168KW on E85 on STD boost


Would love to know how this works????
Must be a generous dyno :shock:
How can it suddenly be making that much power on "STD boost" ?? (7psi)

Please tell me why? have i wasted thousands on ecu, tuning, injectors, zorzt, intake etc etc and only have 157kwatw ?

And the little ihi is definitely running out of puff at 11-12psi



OK So 3 Different Dynos (one of which was at summer Nats) all read on the High side ???

Ok So I have No Cat Like I said it has a 2 1/2" straight pipe
only a pod filter a computer and a exhaust. if you want to have a drive Come down and see me and Go for it
Well with these mods the waste gate cant flow enough to keep the boost to 7 psi
i see 10 psi all day long
the dyno logs show 9 psi for every run, every time
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Re: MX5 Mania Stage 1 VS Flying Miata Little Enchilada

Postby GRID NAZI » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:51 pm

Hi Dan

The first question that I have to ask is what are you trying to achieve?

The next question is do you care about economy?

The next is hoiw much power do you want(CAN YOU HANDLE)?

But you must remember more power = less economy


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