Canola-based Motor Oils

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project.r.racing
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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby project.r.racing » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:57 pm

manga_blue wrote:I can't tell you how disappointed I am with the forum for its inability to take this topic seriously. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Nevertheless I've been plodding on with my research into canola oil as the ultimate performance mod for a flowered Astina. I say plodding because the fishing here has been rather good recently and I'm still recovering from a weekend of toasting cars with a zillion more kilowatts than mine whose drivers previously thought an MX5 was a sort of grown up pedal car.

Anyway the research says there are some key advantages for vege oil, aside from the greenie benefits. Typically friction is 50% lower than petrol and synthetic oils, wear is 20% lower and heat generation is 20% lower. This even applies to Home Brand quality. The problem with the cooking oils is that volatile components can boil off leaving a thick tar-like sludge behind. There's also a risk of your car smelling a bit like a fish shop.

Blended high oleic canola oil + hydroxy fatty acid rich oil + liquid wax ester enriched oils perform significantly better all round than what we now view as conventional oils: friction, wear, heat generation, economy, stability under heat and pressure, dutrability.

Where the simpler oils come into their own is where there's regular refreshment, as in our Astina which chews through heaps of oil anyway. Remember that race engines always used the distinctive smelling Castrol R, a vege oil, which was always changed out after a meeting or two.
you've this right on the head with some of the stuff you typed.

Volalite
No friction inhibitors
Lack of stability
Ecomonic issues.

Yes it may be cheaper per litre. But in 10000km, You'd be using 20L minimum, (probably more like 40L). That's not taking into effect the amount that will burn away after it has become unstable and full of carbon/tar.

Use it for 100-200km after it has become unstable, and you most likely will have a $3000 engine rebuild.

The think that while regular car oils are not as good as cooking oil. The stabilty of regular oils far outweighs the gains of cooking oils.

If I was a race team and had the fund to continuly rebuild engines, then cooking oil would be awesome. But I ain't a race team.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Old Dude » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:27 pm

Have you thought about having a discussion about this with one of the universities, I'm sure that they would be investigating it as well. As far as Normal motor oils go lets not kid our selves, the oil companies do not really want us using anything else other than what comes out of the ground, they have too much invested in that side of things.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby toppertee » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:20 pm

Old Dude wrote:Have you thought about having a discussion about this with one of the universities, I'm sure that they would be investigating it as well. As far as Normal motor oils go lets not kid our selves, the oil companies do not really want us using anything else other than what comes out of the ground, they have too much invested in that side of things.

Cheers
Dale 8)


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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Apu » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Emm...am I missing something here? I think the points made by a few of us point to the use of such oils in race applications where the engines are regularly rebuilt.

Using a "vege" oil in a daily...may not be such a good idea?

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby project.r.racing » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:38 pm

Apu wrote:Emm...am I missing something here? I think the points made by a few of us point to the use of such oils in race applications where the engines are regularly rebuilt.
If you can find any references to race applications in this thread, please point them out. I failed to see any.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Suspense » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:49 pm

project.r.racing wrote:
Apu wrote:Emm...am I missing something here? I think the points made by a few of us point to the use of such oils in race applications where the engines are regularly rebuilt.
If you can find any references to race applications in this thread, please point them out. I failed to see any.

Huh? Now I'm confused :|

Apu wrote:Castor oil?

And I'm serious! I have a friend who did an internship with a TVR team decades ago, and they used castor oil.


NitroDann wrote:Castor oil is used in many 2 stroke high rpm racing situations.

Dann


manga_blue wrote:Remember that race engines always used the distinctive smelling Castrol R, a vege oil, which was always changed out after a meeting or two.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby project.r.racing » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:35 pm

Oops. I should have been more specific in my wording.

Has anyone participating in this thread actually referenced that they are gonna only use it for race applications? I haven't seen any sorry.

There has been a few reference that others have done it in the past in the thread.

Anyways, whomever is gonna use it? Will they be happy with a 3,000-5,000km rebuild intervals? Even if only a track only weekend supersprint car? I dunno if the average weekend track warrior would wnat that kinda trouble.

This Astina test would be a good one. Be curious to know what it is like after several 1000kms travelled. Long before this thread exsisted, I had heard of using cooking oils. But the general consensis of rebuilding constantly killed the idea.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Apu » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:49 pm

Well, I assumed that it s ok for race engines because of the regular rebuild, but not for daily engines because of the tarring. So it may be ok for a couple of thousand kms, but beyond that...

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby manga_blue » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:24 am

I think it's looking like that, Apu. Although it looks like most of the abject failures have occurred when people have just dumped in vege oil after draining mineral oil. The two are very incompatible and the sludging and tarring problems occur pretty quickly after that. Castrol says you must use a solvent flushing oil before transition from mineral to castor oil.

I never hold with conspiracy theories. Companies like Exxon-Mobil, Shell and BP have massive research, development, distribution and marketing capabilities. If they felt they could successfully sell canola based oils then they would. They wouldn't see a small detail like change of feedstock as an obstacle. The only real issue they might worry about is having American farmers as their suppliers. It would be very hard to persuade Congress to invade Arkansas if they started demanding an open competitive pricing model.
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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby bruce » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:21 pm

$10 for 4 litres on sale at supermarket, rrp $19.
I cannot see any savings considering you can buy conventional oil for around the rrp.

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Sean » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:45 pm

bruce wrote:$10 for 4 litres on sale at supermarket, rrp $19.
I cannot see any savings considering you can buy conventional oil for around the rrp.


Add to that the shorter service intervals and it gets more expensive again.

Despite the interests of 'big oil' I'm sure if this was a functional alternative there would be lots of people spruiking it in a similar way to bio diesels?
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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby AL » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:04 pm

I would have thought Peanut oil to be more suitable.
Has a higher boiling point.
Best suited to asian cooking so would naturally carry through to high tech
asian engines.
Low residue when exposed to high temps (tested in the wok).
Tinkered with 1991 NA6

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Apu » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:29 pm

Very high splatter factor though

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Re: Canola-based Motor Oils

Postby Aussie Stig » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:29 pm

Don't see why not, if Qantas can use it to fly its jets.
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