Megasquirt 2 vs the rest

[Dweezle]

I sent an email to Hitman Injection Tuning regarding them tuning to pass emissions and received a reply.

The worrying part is this section.

Hi Mark,

The car is not a problem and neither is the turbo, but you are going to struggle with the ECU. It is achievable but it lacks a number of control systems that are necessary for efficient emissions control. For the cat it would be best to let me choose an appropriate unit. You have to bear in mind that the best for passing emissions is rarely the best for power. I have put MX5s through with metal style high flow cats, but they run much more powerful ECU systems.

Can someone please explain what limiting factors a Megasquirt 2 has over other ECU's?
Ajay at Mania today also told me i would have issues passing emissions with a MS2 but could not say why.
A lot of Tuners have now said similar but no one can seem to say exactly why.
Just that others are more powerful.
Is this just them thinking of older MS versions or am i missing something here?

Any input would be great.

Thanks

[NitroDann]

I disagree fully.

My local tuner said that he had a bit of experience through american contacts in recent years with megasquirt, but said 'They have found its a good replacement for a carby'.

this was true with megasquirt 5 years ago, but things have moved a lot since then.

Remember that the average tuner only hears about megasquirt every 6 months, so has no idea whats changed since MS1 3 years ago.

Ask him what he thinks the issue will actually be. My local tuner had a heap of misconceptions about megasquirt, most of which would have been true a few years ago.

Dann

[Dweezle]

That is what i am thinking is happening here.

I have replied to him asking exactly what he believe the MS2 is missing/other systems have to control emissions.

I might be naive, (well i know i am ) but i find it hard to imagine a ECU (the stock one) from the 80's being able to control emissions better than the MS2??

[zossy1]

The only things the MSII is lacking is a high price tag and a mainstream reputation.

[Steampunk]

I think the tuner is trying to sound like they really know the MS in detail where in fact it's opposite and probably want to avoid using something they know little about. Did they try to sell you another EMS?

Yeah it will be interesting what their answer is to the question about exactly what control systems are lacking.

The only think I can think of is the fact that the base fuel map for MS is purposely rich for two reasons:
1) "rich is safe" (all things being equal)
2) quite a number of places in the US have 91RON as their highest rated fuel, so running richer helps compensate for this limitation.

I haven't been on any MS related sites for quite a while, but last time the MS was available for sale in California. This in itself speaks volumes on how it passes emissions.

[Dweezle]

Well i got my reply and i honestly think he just has no real idea on what the MS can do now-a-days.

The MS2 is roughly a few generations behind what most of the aftermarket systems can do. I would say about 7 or 8 years behind. They are great as a project and they do try to cover as much control as they do, but there are far better systems on the market. The biggest issues for what we need to do are with closed loop fuel control. I believe the MS2 calls it EGO control. It lacks most of the adjustability I need to reduce emissions without effecting normal drivability. When done correctly, closed loop control should be totally seamless and actually improve how the car drives.

No matter. I should still be able to have it pass, just it will be a little more difficult than normal.

Surely this is not true?
Does the MS2 really have less Closed loop control then say a Haltech/Adaptronic?


He charges $1500 for a Emissions Pass, (+ new CAT & any other things he require), so it is not cheap but i guess if you were in a hurry he guarantees a pass.

[NitroDann]

Yeah he has no idea.

Dann

[greenMachine]

I gather you need an emmissions test? You have a few choices:

1. Pick a tuner who can do it with your preferred ECU;

2. Pay a tuner to learn to do it with your preferred ECU (accepting the risk that he cannot do it, or the ECU is not up to the task - you get to evaluate these risks);

2. Pick the/an ECU preferred by your chosen tuner.

One of these is less certain to produce a result than the other two ... Forget the technical stuff, focus on the outcome you are chasing. I note that Matt does say he can do it, just that it will be more difficult. If you proceed with him, it might be good to nail him down on how he proposes to charge - ie how much (if any) extra are you going to pay. It also might be useful to ask if he has ever got an MS through before ...

[sailaholic]

I think green is on the money. All the tuners I talked to had the same opinion but had only worked with first gen systems.

I still went adaptronic for a number of reasons and haven't really looked closely at the capability / options on ms2.

If it's going to be an extra 500 to do it with a Ms then maybe you're better off putting that into a commercial ecu and not having the I don't wasn't to tune a ms problem ever again.

If he is close by, why not take it down to him and let him look over it impressing it's the next gen product. He might change his mind.

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[sailaholic]

I just read your latest update in your garage thread and might be able to shed some light. You said your ms2 runs a 12x12 maps. Soon 144 cells. The adaptronic runs 512 cell map. I think the haltec ps 1000 was a bit higher.

Maybe this is where they struggle, getting a tune that's good with the corse (relatively) maps available.

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[Dweezle]

It does 12x12 ignition with 16x16 fuel i believe.
But very interesting.
I will have to have a look into that.

Thanks for the heads up.

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[NitroDann]

A dyno tuner will NEVER tune 500 cells. Never.

Theres no need, because ecu's havn't jumped cell to cell for years.

Watch the trace dot on one of your maps in TunerStudios, it doesnt jump cell to cell it varies over the cell. It uses settings in all the cells around it to determine the tune at that moment.

There is no need whatsoever so to have 500 cells.

The hard part to tune for emissions is throttle transitions and deceleration.

Dann

[Dweezle]

I have noticed that Dann.
That is what i was assuming was happening.
When you Autotune you actually see the cells around a particular cell change.

Makes sense too.
I wouldn't imagine tuning 500 cells would be much fun.

[NitroDann]

Imterpolation. THATS the word I was looking for!

it interpolates between cells. So having 500 is a marketing wank.

Dann

[sailaholic]

True, but if you have a engine that changes requirements significantly then being able to group more cells in that area helps with out making your other area corse.

Ofcourse you will still have the extremes that see little to no use ( and probably tuning effort) , but if you want to concentrate on an Area you have that ability.

Remember theses ecus are also bought by people who want OEM level of tuning.

And as you said, auto tune can adjusts alot of these.

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