Track car preparation advice sought

[david_syd_au]

My son and I are currently preparing a track car from a recently imported 1998 Roadster RS (NB).
It can't be road registered, and will be a dedicated track car, used initially just for MX5 club trackdays, and maybe later maybe for super sprints or competition, but that's a long way off.
We don't plan on being super competitive (I know, everyone says that when they start), so weight reduction and high-performance are not important yet, but need the car to be reliable, easy to maintain, and a good platform for learning to drive on a track. I have only done a few tracks days in my daily-drive NC, so am still a novice. My son has done no track driving yet.
The car will be getting a full roll cage, race seat and harness, to help protect us from any serious mistakes.


1. Air-con - any reason for keeping ?

It seems best to remove the air con.
Less things to go wrong,
less weight (although that is not a major reason),
and it might also be possible to sell the air-con system components to help with the budget.
Any reason for keeping the air-con ?


2. Heater - worth removing ?

We plan to keep the heater for demisting purposes. Is this really going to be useful ?
Is there any good reason for removing the heater ?


3. Tyres - upgrade later

The car still has the tyres that were on it when it arrived from Japan last month.
They are not performance tyres, but have mostly good tread, although a little worn on the outside edges of the front tyres.
My plan is to switch the front & back wheels, get a track-oriented wheel alignment from an MX5 expert, and run it as-is.
I see no value in investing in good rubber yet.
Better to run the car at some track days, learning how to drive it and sorting out the inevitable issues first.
Sound reasoning?


4. Passenger seat

A passenger seat will be required for newbie instruction at MX5 club track days.
We currently plan to see the standard driver and passenger seats.
The stock passenger seat belt won't be usable due to the roll cage
Would it be worth keeping the stock passenger seat and rails, and using it will a racing harness?
Or will that not work, so we will have to buy a 2nd racing seat to use for a passenger when it is required?


The car won't be ready for the 19th Feb track day, but we hope to come along anyway, and probably ask lots more questions.

That's it for now. Any feedback on the above questions, or general advice is very welcome.

[NitroDann]

Remove the air con, if you remove the heater you can use rain-x anti fog, it works.

As for tyres, assuming all 4 match dont change them. Far better to learn in a car with no grip. Big grip is bad because by the time they let go you are really moving. Standard mistake made by rich guys, buy a viper, huge slicks, downforce, and by the time you run out of grip you are really going far too hard.

My 2c.

Dann

[initial D]

I want to remove aircon on my daily n15 sss, if i do this can i still use the same fan belt or not?

Thanks

[NitroDann]

I want to remove aircon on my daily n15 sss, if i do this can i still use the same fan belt or not?

Thanks

I dont know, have a look.

Dann

[Guran]

I want to remove aircon on my daily n15 sss, if i do this can i still use the same fan belt or not?

Thanks

While you're at it Mr initial D, please tell us about the price of tea in China.

David, it sounds to me like you've put a lot of thought into this already, and I don't have any disagreement with your proposal. Aircon can go. Heater removal should be OK but you should check category regulations before getting rid of it (Supersprint Vehicle Regs - see Types 3 and 4, and also the CAMS Manual). Your existing old tyres would be fine to get started with, and as Dann says, low grip is good for learning about the basic set-up of the car. You'll probably find that the passenger seat and seat-belts are free modifications (remove or replace at will). I reckon you'd be better off going without a passenger seat, and just use the instructor's car for the first-timer training at club trackdays (I would be willing to lend mine). Don't forget to add "logbooking" on your "to do" list.

[deviant]

1. Keeping cool while lining up to go on track?! No other reason to keep it. The AC system is heavy and saps power when it is on and you wont feel it when you are suited, booted and helmet headed anyway.

2. Ditch the heater. If you are running with a hard top you might need a way to demist though, some people just leave the fan and ducting in place and some people use 12v electric heaters designed for classics, hot rods, kit cars etc.

3. Depends on the age of the tyres. What suspension work are you planning? No point sticking super sticky tyres on if you are wobbling around on standard suspension. For a first timer high end road tyres are a good compromise...they should last you a season, have enough slip and slide to learn the limits but should also have enough grip for you to be able to get some good speed up. Without knowing how to feel the limits of when the car is on the edge a set of slicks or semi-slicks will be to much of a learning curve, you will never really get on top of them. Super sticky tyres also flog suspension bushes, CV joints, sway bar links, wheel bearings etc etc so you need more maintenance to keep an eye out for cracks and things working loose.

4. Added cost but ditch the road seats. The Sparco Sprint V is the most popular as it is reasonably comfy and fits in an MX5. The drivers one will mount straight on to the stock rails but you might still be to tall in the car. The passenger one can mount to the floor on seat mounts. Use the correct grade bolts to do it.
With a proper seat and a 5 or 6 point harness you can relax in the car and not go around corners trying to hold yourself upright and getting tired out. You also are not properly in control doing that. It is also safer to have proper seats if you have a bingle.
Why should you buy a passenger seat / harness to? It is not fair to sit someone in the car with you and expect them to instruct you without the same level of safety as you give yourself.

[Bizi]

I find Boyracer's garage/build threads for his racecars very useful, too. His most recent NB, the SE from Tassie, has a new thread active.

[evil_weevil]

Don't forget to add "logbooking" on your "to do" list.

Wouldnt it need to be built to 2F spec, not sprints then?

Id say for now, just take out what you dont need, (eg heater. air con and anything else!) but dont throw it away.
that way say in a couple of years if you decide to do more sprints or door to door you have the parts there that may be needed to compy with that class.

but for now, go out and have fun with it, I'll be doing this in 14 years time with my son/daughter!
you seem to have a fair idea on what you want to do, good work!

[david_syd_au]

Remove the air con, if you remove the heater you can use rain-x anti fog, it works.

As for tyres, assuming all 4 match dont change them. Far better to learn in a car with no grip. Big grip is bad because by the time they let go you are really moving. Standard mistake made by rich guys, buy a viper, huge slicks, downforce, and by the time you run out of grip you are really going far too hard.

My 2c.

Dann

OK Dann.

I don't know if our car will ever be as stripped-out as yours though :-)

Yes, all 4 tyres are matching. No rich guys, vipers or huge slicks here, so we should have our incidents at relatively low speeds.

...
Aircon can go. Heater removal should be OK but you should check category regulations before getting rid of it
(Supersprint Vehicle Regs - see Types 3 and 4, and also the CAMS Manual).

Thanks Bryan,
To a newbie, the various regulations appear like a labyrinth, and those links are very useful.

The Super Sprint regs make no mention of the heater, but for type 3 cars, do refer to the CAMS 3J regs for "Improved Production Cars", which states that "All components solely associated with the heating" is "free", so as you said, heater removal would be ok.

However, I see the CAMS 3J regs place limits on which interior trim can be removed, which I didn't know about. Looks like some of the trim which I was trying to sell will have to go back in the car after the roll cage is done, if the car is to be log booked.

Your existing old tyres would be fine to get started with, and as Dann says, low grip is good for learning about the basic set-up of the car.

Original tyres it is then, until they wear out, or we suddenly find lots of money

You'll probably find that the passenger seat and seat-belts are free modifications (remove or replace at will). I reckon you'd be better off going without a passenger seat, and just use the instructor's car for the first-timer training at club trackdays (I would be willing to lend mine).

Wow, that's a generous offer, but I seriously don't know if I would want my son putting your car at risk :-)

Don't forget to add "logbooking" on your "to do" list.

Yes, thanks for that. I planned to get the roll cage registration completed anyway, but am not sure whether to go to the trouble of getting a log book.
I assume it is best to "log book" the car at the beginning, to save extra hassle later, and to open up the events for which the car could ultimately be used?

2. Ditch the heater. If you are running with a hard top you might need a way to demist though, some people just leave the fan and ducting in place and some people use 12v electric heaters designed for classics, hot rods, kit cars etc.

Looks like there are some options then, including the Rain-X mentioned by Dann.
So the heater can go.

...
3. Depends on the age of the tyres. What suspension work are you planning? No point sticking super sticky tyres on if you are wobbling around on standard suspension. For a first timer high end road tyres are a good compromise...they should last you a season, have enough slip and slide to learn the limits but should also have enough grip for you to be able to get some good speed up. Without knowing how to feel the limits of when the car is on the edge a set of slicks or semi-slicks will be to much of a learning curve, you will never really get on top of them. Super sticky tyres also flog suspension bushes, CV joints, sway bar links, wheel bearings etc etc so you need more maintenance to keep an eye out for cracks and things working loose.

No idea on the age of the tyres, but they have reasonable tread, and don't show any obvious signs of age. If they prove to be old and/or dangerous then they will of course have to be replaced.
No suspension plans yet. The car came standard with bilstein shocks, but is otherwise stock and unremarkable.
Also no plans to fit "super sticky" tyres, just high-end road tyres as you recommend.

4. Added cost but ditch the road seats. The Sparco Sprint V is the most popular as it is reasonably comfy and fits in an MX5. The drivers one will mount straight on to the stock rails but you might still be to tall in the car. The passenger one can mount to the floor on seat mounts. Use the correct grade bolts to do it. With a proper seat and a 5 or 6 point harness you can relax in the car and not go around corners trying to hold yourself upright and getting tired out. You also are not properly in control doing that. It is also safer to have proper seats if you have a bingle.

I bought a Sparco Sprint V to use as the driver's seat. but it will have to be mounted on the floor, as both my son and I are 6' 2"+ and wiil need to get the seat as low as possible to have any chance of meeting the roll cage clearance rules. So no rails and adjust ability for us :-)

Why should you buy a passenger seat / harness to? It is not fair to sit someone in the car with you and expect them to instruct you without the same level of safety as you give yourself.

Fair call

[timk]

I have gone through this recently with my Jap NB. I removed heater, power steering, air con and everything else that could be unbolted pretty much. The build diary can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=46697

First time I went out was with some 5 year old Japanese S Drives. It was relatively easy to drive the car to the limit on these tyres and it became boring quite quickly. In this spec I was able to do very similar times to the turbo MX-5s with stickier tyres, and a more experienced friend of mine was able to go faster than them.

I can highly recommend a 6 point harness & race seat for both safety and being able to feel what the car is doing.

Unfortunately I don't really have the time or a suitable tow vehicle at the moment so I have put my car up for sale:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=50681

It was a real blast and I will miss it, but I have another MX-5 street car so I am getting my track day fixes in that (albeit slower).

Cheers

[greenMachine]

My son and I are currently preparing a track car from a recently imported 1998 Roadster RS (NB).
It can't be road registered, and will be a dedicated track car, used initially just for MX5 club trackdays, and maybe later maybe for super sprints or competition, but that's a long way off.
We don't plan on being super competitive (I know, everyone says that when they start), so weight reduction and high-performance are not important yet, but need the car to be reliable, easy to maintain, and a good platform for learning to drive on a track. I have only done a few tracks days in my daily-drive NC, so am still a novice. My son has done no track driving yet.
The car will be getting a full roll cage, race seat and harness, to help protect us from any serious mistakes.


1. Air-con - any reason for keeping ?
No - ditch it.

2. Heater - worth removing ?
Keep it - it is part of the cooling system, demisting will be necessary and there is not a lot of weight to be gained by removing it and replacing it with another demister (RainX and its ilk have their drawbacks).

3. Tyres - upgrade later
Good plan.

4. Passenger seat
Fit Sarco Sprint or similar, with two harnesses (they fit the stock rails). Note, the width available for an aftermarket seat is very limited - I hope neither of you are particularly broad beamed

if this is going to be a fun car to you and your son, try to think long-term. You don't want to pour too much money into a fun car, so if you have a plan of running it in Supersprints or some of the other low-level motor racing events, look to what regulations might require. This will mean that you don't have to do unto things you have done, or redo them differently.

Yes, the regulations do look very confusing at first. However, you will find that, at least at our club track days, class regulations are unlikely to give you much grief. Providing you have the basics (clothing, fire extinguisher, etc) the worst that is likely to happen is that you get bumped up into another class.

As you are both putting your toes in the water, you have a reasonable amount of time to become more familiar with the class structures and their associated regulations as to what you can and can't do with the car. In the first instance, I would suggest that you do as little as you absolutely need to to get the car on the track. This includes the roll cage, seats/harness, clothing, and other safety gear.

Frankly, if you had asked me initially, I would have suggested a different route. In fact, if it is not too late, and you can afford to park the race car for a while, I would suggest that you consider this: buy the cheapest NA that you can find that has registration on it, and use it as your 'track pig'. Trailering a car around is not a lot of fun, and at this stage of your motorsport "career", an unregistereable race car is not a necessity for you to learn the basics. A cheap car that you can just get in, drive to the circuit, put on your helmet, and head out onto the track, will be a whole lot more fun and probably in the short term anyway, a lot cheaper than preparing the unregistered car for the track. I suggest that you have a look at Bryan's (Guran) thread on what is possible with a stock car, and also how much it costs to run a stock car, let alone a modified one. Note also that the requirements for roll cages/roll bars are very different for registered cars, compared to non-registered cars.

Regardless of the path you choose to take, good luck, and have fun!

[Agent Orange]

preperation for what you want to do , my advice , replace the brake fluid , get a good set of front and rear pads / change the oil and the filter / get a wheel alignment. then look at your personal saftey , a roll bar , a good drivers seat a 5 point harness and a good skid lid . the simple fact is the heater and the air conditioner will not impeed you from learning the skills you require and saftey items will mean that if the nut behind the wheel gets lose at least you can walk away from that lesson and you can come back and learn some more. [ especially if your young bloke is going to have a go , as they are mostly all balls and no brains and yoy are his saftey officer ]
After a few track days consider some semi slicks [ again for saftey ] and some shocks they are the two best items to give the car some feel instead of having somehing that flops around
agent orange

[david_syd_au]

My son and I are currently preparing a track car from a recently imported 1998 Roadster RS (NB).
It can't be road registered, and will be a dedicated track car, used initially just for MX5 club trackdays, and maybe later maybe for super sprints or competition, but that's a long way off.
We don't plan on being super competitive (I know, everyone says that when they start), so weight reduction and high-performance are not important yet, but need the car to be reliable, easy to maintain, and a good platform for learning to drive on a track. I have only done a few tracks days in my daily-drive NC, so am still a novice. My son has done no track driving yet.
The car will be getting a full roll cage, race seat and harness, to help protect us from any serious mistakes.


1. Air-con - any reason for keeping ?
No - ditch it.

2. Heater - worth removing ?
Keep it - it is part of the cooling system, demisting will be necessary and there is not a lot of weight to be gained by removing it and replacing it with another demister (RainX and its ilk have their drawbacks).

3. Tyres - upgrade later
Good plan.

4. Passenger seat
Fit Sarco Sprint or similar, with two harnesses (they fit the stock rails). Note, the width available for an aftermarket seat is very limited - I hope neither of you are particularly broad beamed

He isn't :-)

if this is going to be a fun car to you and your son, try to think long-term. You don't want to pour too much money into a fun car, so if you have a plan of running it in Supersprints or some of the other low-level motor racing events, look to what regulations might require. This will mean that you don't have to do unto things you have done, or redo them differently.

Yes, the regulations do look very confusing at first. However, you will find that, at least at our club track days, class regulations are unlikely to give you much grief. Providing you have the basics (clothing, fire extinguisher, etc) the worst that is likely to happen is that you get bumped up into another class.

As you are both putting your toes in the water, you have a reasonable amount of time to become more familiar with the class structures and their associated regulations as to what you can and can't do with the car. In the first instance, I would suggest that you do as little as you absolutely need to to get the car on the track. This includes the roll cage, seats/harness, clothing, and other safety gear.

Frankly, if you had asked me initially, I would have suggested a different route. In fact, if it is not too late, and you can afford to park the race car for a while, I would suggest that you consider this: buy the cheapest NA that you can find that has registration on it, and use it as your 'track pig'. Trailering a car around is not a lot of fun, and at this stage of your motorsport "career", an unregistereable race car is not a necessity for you to learn the basics. A cheap car that you can just get in, drive to the circuit, put on your helmet, and head out onto the track, will be a whole lot more fun and probably in the short term anyway, a lot cheaper than preparing the unregistered car for the track. I suggest that you have a look at Bryan's (Guran) thread on what is possible with a stock car, and also how much it costs to run a stock car, let alone a modified one. Note also that the requirements for roll cages/roll bars are very different for registered cars, compared to non-registered cars.

Regardless of the path you choose to take, good luck, and have fun!

Thanks for that feedback.

The plan from the start was to prepare a car that would have full cage, race seat, harness etc, to maximise safety, even though that would probably be at the expense of the car being eligible for registration.
I already have a trailer and suitable tow car, so was setup to transport the car.
Your advice is good, but I am too far down this track to change now.

[david_syd_au]

preperation for what you want to do , my advice , replace the brake fluid, get a good set of front and rear pads / change the oil and the filter / get a wheel alignment. then look at your personal saftey , a roll bar , a good drivers seat a 5 point harness and a good skid lid .

Good list. We've done or are doing all of that, plus gearbox and diff oil to be safe

the simple fact is the heater and the air conditioner will not impeed you from learning the skills you require and saftey items will mean that if the nut behind the wheel gets lose at least you can walk away from that lesson and you can come back and learn some more. [ especially if your young bloke is going to have a go , as they are mostly all balls and no brains and yoy are his saftey officer ]

So right, he is the main reason we are gong the full roll cage etc route.

After a few track days consider some semi slicks [ again for saftey ] and some shocks they are the two best items to give the car some feel instead of having somehing that flops around
agent orange

Thanks. For now, the plan doesn't extend too far beyond just getting on the track for a few track days.
I expect, that any plans we make now will not survive first contact with the track :-)

[tbro]

Pretty well what everyone else has said, BUT, get rid of the airbags and DON'T remove the abs.

Read the cams manual for Cat 2 sports cars mainly 2F specs. You don't want to start stripping down everything to find later on that it has to go back in. Doesn't mean you have to logbook the car BUT just in case.

Cage seat and 6 point harness, proper race suit, shoes, gloves, balaclava, underwear and good helmet and a hans device are all part of the act so don't skimp.
If ya gunna do it, do it right.

Terry

ps; get the book from ebay.com Trackdata book Pearcemeister ????? worth its weight in gold especially the first few track days. Nothing worse than getting there and finding you left the keys at home Hey Boags!!!!!