5zigen exhaust and headers

[mito]

that was some insightful replies

[NitroDann]

Basically, if you are never going to get serious, there will be Maybe a 1% difference between mania, 5zigen and HKS and second hand no name(but well made) headers and exhaust.

BUT, and its a big but...
5Zigen is an awesome name

Dann

[mito]

hrmmms second hand no name it is then

[NitroDann]

Thats the spirit.

Honestly, a full 1400 dollar mania exhaust might make 85rwkw where as a no name second hand anything might make 82rwkw on a bad day. Thats it with stock heads.

Dann

[mito]

when u say full exhaust do u mean with headers too ?

how much money would i be looking at a no name exhaust ?

[hamx5ter]

ugh...*mutter* typed a whole reply out and it disappeared ...

ok, so I understand that the effect of the cams is maximized when matched to the right headers to maximize the scavenging effect.

So is there any benefit if we were to upgrade the cams but still using the stock headers? if so, how much typically?

The reason I ask is that, for just of us, the upgrades happen over a period of time and I am keen to do them in such a way that there is some benefit until all the parts come together.

For us non-technical types, we are just likely to just get off the shelf headers anyway. Obviously, once we get the parts together we can look ay optimizing the headers.

So, which one gives the better result in the interim?,

[NitroDann]

Between cams and headers?
LOL cams.

Well it dwpends really. Cams come in all sizes.
Unlike most mods, if you want more power you can just add bigger and bigger cams. This is at the expennse of low end power and a nice idle.

Having said that, some 440 dollar camtech regrinds will still get ,uch more of an increase on an otherwise stock engine than a full exhaust.

And they will run on a stock ecu.
And it will sound like a real car. Something a fart can and extractors cannot do.

Dann

[hamx5ter]

so what cams would give me good power (not necessarily maximum) from 4500-7000 rpm but not trash idle too much?

I don't need a silky smooth idle, but really don't want to combine the LSD shudder with idle dips when turning in and out of places.

Is the duration the only thing to look for? would 256* work well for a spirited but still streetable car that doesn't see too much traffic and not make it idle too high. How much easier would it be than 275* cams?

or is there something else too? do I need adjustable can gears?

you said I could run it with the stock ecu; does it need to be tuned? is the tuning a drive in / drive out affair or a protracted process?

[devski]

Whatever would we do without dann

[NitroDann]

so what cams would give me good power (not necessarily maximum) from 4500-7000 rpm but not trash idle too much?

I don't need a silky smooth idle, but really don't want to combine the LSD shudder with idle dips when turning in and out of places.

Is the duration the only thing to look for? would 256* work well for a spirited but still streetable car that doesn't see too much traffic and not make it idle too high. How much easier would it be than 275* cams?

or is there something else too? do I need adjustable can gears?

you said I could run it with the stock ecu; does it need to be tuned? is the tuning a drive in / drive out affair or a protracted process?

Sorry about the quote, I just did it to make answering all of your questions easier for me.

The idle wont dip with a cam, but with something like my 275s on a stock ecu it will lope. But when you bring the revs up to 1500 to take off or park it it will be dead smooth.

The Tomei's that charlie_91 put in his 1.6 are 256* cams and are a drop in with stock ecu. As are the Tighe 805's.
To put into perspective the power, charlie made 220rwhp on a stock engine and something small like 8psi, on a tiny turbo.

275s Will run on a stock ecu, but what you also need to look out for is the lift. Cams with a lot of lift (how far they open the valves) are hard on the valvetrain because to open the valves higher, you need to open them faster. this is like going from being pushed to being palmed. In other words, its a lot harsher on the HLAs, so some bigger cams might need a swap to solid lifters like I have. Also, 1.8 motors have solid lifters stock, so that fixes that.

You DO NOT need or want adjustable cam gears for off the shelf cams.
If they made more power 3* advanced dont you think HKS would have just made them that way?

Adjustable are great for applications like mine with custom cams. That way you can dial them in just right, as with a one off item, you can never be sure EXACTLY what you are going to get, and cam gears help get it just right here and there. Where as Tomei, HKS, Apexi, Tighe, Kelford and the like all got it right in development, so why ruin their work?

Ecu tuning is a drive in drive out process usually.
Sometimes you might have to go back to get cold start fixed up, as the engine needs to cool for 6 hours for a true cold start.
You cannot simply start it cold. Then turn it off before it gets hot on the guage and start it again and call the second time a cold start, as the cylinder is lubed, the plugs are hot, theres fresh misted fuel in the inlet manifold etc.
So sometimes you may need to go back and leave it overnight to get that perfect.

Or....Fit a MS and tune it yourself.

Dann

[sailaholic]

Some clarifications for dann.

only later 1.8 have solid lifters, not na 8 , maybe not nba?

Stock ecu can not be retuned afaik. So IF you need a retune you need ecu as well.

Thought the stock ecu might be a bit lean up top with big cams but I don't know.

Charlie ran a greddy e manage piggyback with his turbo.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[NitroDann]

Yeah sorry, NBs have solids, not NA8s.

Yep it may be a little lean with fat cams in it, but then you just get a jaycar DFA and you are set.

Dann

[hamx5ter]

ugh.. post went missing again! hate Opera Mini!

I thought the NB8A had solid lifters (or at least I read somewhere that it does, and that was one of the changes between NA8 and the newer 1.8l engines). I'll check it up.

When you say the Tighe 805 and Tomei cams are drop in, do you mean they will just work with the stock ecu without needing a tune?

What cams are your 275*? probably a custom jobbie and what do you suggest for my requirements (spirited driving <- long drives and trackdays)?

If I stick to 256* cams I wouldn't need to go fiddling with Jaycar? would prefer not to. ..

Thanks for the detailed writeup and the replies Dann. its been very useful and I've learned a lot ..

[NitroDann]

Yeah the 805s will run fine on a stock ecu.

Id recommend them.

They will do better with an ecu also.

So what im saying is, ecu alone might be worth 10hp.

Cams alone might be worth 20hp

Probably 35 maybe 40 together.

There are people making near 100RWKW on these cams with an ecu and exhaust/intake.

Dann

[hamx5ter]

that's awesome. I wasn't too keen on going for an ecu right now. so cams, clutch + flywheel, intake / exhaust and then ecu... eventually.

time to start saving.