My thoughts on LEGAL Turbo engineering (NSW BASED)

[NitroDann]

There are some strong points to be made about the just buy an se/sp statements that always comes up.

Firstly, you have to replace most of the turbo system and re engineer the car if you buy an se and want the performance you get by turboing a non turbo car.

If you turbo an NA, and you can work on it yourself it really isnt that expensive.

Starting with a 6 grand na6, you need second hand turbo gear, charlie just sold a serious serious bit of kit for what... 2500?
Then NB8B brakes for 1000.
Then an exhaust for 500.
Then a clutch for 500.
Then a megasquirt for 500.
Then a diff for 500.

And you're there. And those figures you can see are all very high, and assume the car was bought stock.
Engineering might cost 500 if you somehow have to trailer the car across the state or something.

And you get something with far more performance than you can possibly get out of a 100% legal non engineered SE/SP.

Dann

[dave2221]

There are some strong points to be made about the just buy an se/sp statements that always comes up.

Firstly, you have to replace most of the turbo system and re engineer the car if you buy an se and want the performance you get by turboing a non turbo car.

If you turbo an NA, and you can work on it yourself it really isnt that expensive.

Starting with a 6 grand na6, you need second hand turbo gear, charlie just sold a serious serious bit of kit for what... 2500?
Then NB8B brakes for 1000.
Then an exhaust for 500.
Then a clutch for 500.
Then a megasquirt for 500.
Then a diff for 500.

And you're there. And those figures you can see are all very high, and assume the car was bought stock.
Engineering might cost 500 if you somehow have to trailer the car across the state or something.

And you get something with far more performance than you can possibly get out of a 100% legal non engineered SE/SP.

Dann

Yes, but you didnt add the cost of the engineer, emissions test or noise test to that, and the blueslip.....

Also you dont get the added suspension, 6 speed box (with SE gearset) A/C, 6 stacker, leather seats...

I understand it can still be done cheaper, but from what your saying
6,000+2,500+1,000+500+500+500 plus engineering and blue slip 1,300
Total cost = $12,300 (the end result will more likely be closer to 15-16k for MOST people)
And we have not included a mechanic to fit it all (we are not all that handy with a spanner)
Now that is base cost of $12,300... for an extra 6k you get a standard car, with more features, and approx 10 years newer.

here is my current talks with the RTA (its not going the way i read VSI 6) i have asked them to clarify where the line lies on engine mods from self certified to an engineer...

-----Original Message-----
From: MCINTYRE Mark W [mailto:Mark_MCINTYRE@rta.nsw.gov.au] On Behalf Of Technical Enquiries
Sent: 30 September 2011 12:43 PM
To: David
Subject: RE: INTERNET FEEDBACK

David,

This type of modification will require engineer certification.

You need to call the VSCCS line on 1300 336 206 for information on who is on the new signatory list.

Regards

RTA Tech Enq

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:******@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 30 September 2011 12:34 PM
To: Technical Enquiries
Subject: RE: INTERNET FEEDBACK


I have a technical question regarding light vehicle modifications

I have read the following article:

[url]http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_06_-_guidelines_for
_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_2007.pdf[/url]

Being VSI 06, dated 1/11/07 (and assumed current)

I have a turbo vehicle, and would like to increase the stock vehicles airflow.

It states that the vehicles engine can be modified, if all emission control equipment is retained and functional.

My query, is does this have to be the ORIGINAL emissions gear?

I would like to upgrade the following parts:

- Exhaust (retaining all emissions gear and noise levels)
- Air Induction (enclosed to meet relevant ADR)
- Intercooler (increased capacity to reduce heat soak on extended trips under load such as track days)

The car will retain the factory ECU.

Does this meet the requirement of a minor modification not requiring any further certification, as all emission gear is retained?

For the purposes of this scenario, please assume all parts meet relevant ADR's

Regards

David


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[NitroDann]

I did include the cost of engineering. Reread

6 speeds arent that expensive, and many do not like them But add 1000 on top if you want.

Dont forget the person would sell heaps of parts hed replaced.

On top of that second hand koni/kings are a couple hundred dollars and are an easy equivalent if not much better.

And then there the fact that you have to have an NB. Cannot remember the last 'help me find the perfect NB thread'. Plenty more appeal to many in the NA. IMO.

And you end up with a car for far less than 15k, which is totally legal, very easy to just modify and get the certificate changed.
Which completely outperforms an se/sp in every way.

Dann

[dave2221]

Sorry, i did miss the engineering part....

Anyway, $15,000 is still only a few grand shy of a SE.

As for personal preference to your model, well you can buy a cheap NB8A for not much more than your $6,000 quoted figure for a NA6

Your going to end up with two different cars at the end of the day....

one is a near 20 year old car, with higher k's, and second hand bits.... probably from god knows where.

while the other is a manufacture built and designed package, with lower k's, and generally a good history on the vehicle.....

So its going to come down alot to personal preference.......
As a daily driver, i made the decision to go down the SE route, as the creatrue comforts far outway the extra cost and hassle of modifying, and i will never get any hassle from the cops regarding modifications.

I will assume dann, that your going to be biased towards a more track dedicated car, and the SE really isnt the right car for that.
So since we will never see eye to eye on which is "better" i fell confident that we have pointed out the benefits of each model, (and some of the pitfalls involved with each)

here is the latst reply from the RTA..... which states that nearly every car, on ever forum is probably illegally modified, as NOBODY gets an engineers cert for an exhaust.

-----Original Message-----
From: MCINTYRE Mark W [mailto:Mark_MCINTYRE@rta.nsw.gov.au] On Behalf Of Technical Enquiries
Sent: 30 September 2011 1:12 PM
To: David Barker
Subject: RE: INTERNET FEEDBACK

David,

You need to provide evidence that the vehicle still complies with all relevant ADR's, this is done by the engineers report.

Any vehicle built after 1st Jan 1986, you cannot alter from the manufacturers standard any part of the induction or exhaust system without an engineers report.

Regards

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:*****@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 30 September 2011 1:01 PM
To: Technical Enquiries
Subject: RE: INTERNET FEEDBACK

What is the basis of needing an engineer?

Just wondering where the line is between owner certified, and needing an engineer? As its unclear to what extent we can "tinker" without paying an extra $1,000 for an engineer.

[NitroDann]

Absolutely. Everyone has a different idea of what they want.

My argument regarding second hand parts is that its unlikely second hand turbo parts, like charlie_91s, have nearly as many KMs as the turbo parts on any se/sp.
And for example charlies 2500 or 2000 dollar kit was all way way way better and far higher wuality than any factory se/sp parts.

Dann

[NMX516]

Plus an SE/SP is much easier to insure than what will amount to a highly modified N/A car. And easier to resell a factory turbo car if needed, and for much closer to what you have spent on it compared to a highly modified car - just ask bjones!

Sure, you can build up an NA6 in your back yard for a few $k, I've helped friends do exactly that, but at the end of the day it really isn't worth much more than a standard one, and will be harder to sell because we all either want to DIY for ourselves or are wary of the job done by another DIY'er.

Unless you really just want the challenge and enjoyment of doing it yourself, buy a factory turbo. Don't expect the DIY route to make any financial sense. SE's and SP's can also be modified

[NitroDann]

What I think you are missing is this.

For some its not about resale value, and pose factor, and all that crap. Its about the car.

Of course I know every dollar Ive spent upgrading my car will never come back, but I dont treat the car like an investment, I dont modify it for goos resale, I modify it for me.

The fact that its unique is what makes it not worth much but its also what makes it perfect for me.

And Ive no idea how BJones spent as much money as he has claimed he has.

Dann

[zossy1]

Apples and oranges, boys.

My turboed NA8 owes me around $12K so far, including all brake and suspension mods and a brand new (excellent) paint job. It also has about 300 hours of my time in it (at a guess).

It is still not engineered though, and needs a few other things.

It's a project. Buying an SE would have been easier, but meh - I have had a blast building this car.

If you want an SE/SP, buy one. I'll keep my turbo Clubman thanks.

[NMX516]

What I think you are missing is this.

For some its not about resale value, and pose factor, and all that crap. Its about the car.

Dann

pose factor?? Who cares?? As for treating a car like an investment, cars are anything but an investment!

What I think you're missing is this -

Two options:
1) turbo your atmo car. Good fun, lots to learn, and at the end of it you've got a car that is exactly how you want it. But if you're someone who is looking at the viability of doing so from a dollar point of view, and you want to end up with a solid reliable car, it's going to cost you more than just buying an SE or SP to start with.
2) Buy an SE/SP and enjoy less hassle with ownership such as insurance, reselling (you never know when you might need to sell a car in short time to raise money for something more important in your life), and less hassle from the cops. AND, you still get to play and modify it if you want to, just like option 1.

It doesn't matter which way you go, it just depends where your interest and priorities stand. But lets not fool the beginners into thinking that they can easily do a decent turbo conversion on the cheap.

[Hjt]

Three points I feel I must add:

1) Costing depends on the quality of the products used, the man hours involved either yourself or workshops. Can vary heaps.

2) Final drive of a finished product is different whether you go down any route, turbo na or nb or modifying a factory turbo.

3) Don't waste money on an SE, if you want a factory turbo wait for a SP to become available at a reduced price. Most SE drivers upgrade their components because the factory made it "weaksauce".

[NitroDann]

This is a silly thread because your points like cheaper to buy an se than build a similarly reliable turbo na would be true for beginners, but for people who can build their own, what I have to say isnt news.

Dann

[dave2221]

i dont think the thread is silly, but it certainly isnt going to convince anyone here who already has a MX5....

For a new owner i think it could be valuable information.


Many of you Turbo atmo drivers are running your 5's as track spec, or just not dailying them (many not all)

Some people want a faster than atmo MX5, without the hassle

Some people want to go as fast as they can, (like HJT suggests, he wants more power)

I have had modified cars, and tried to use them as a daily (20v ae86)... but at the end of the day its just not practical, especially when you need A/C to deal with summer tempreatures.

So it really shows there are a few options available to the turbo MX5 owner..... and you need to build/buy a car that is going to suit your purpose......

So.... IN MY CIRCUMSTANCES, the upgraded luxuries and the convenience for a daily suited me best.

[NitroDann]

Thats right and everyones different.

Its funny, you are sort of right, there arent HEAPS of daily turbo atmos, as we are calling them, but there are plenty of supercharged ones .

Dann

[sean2]

Look out kiddies I'm back and I've got a new toy!
Something's gone bunk with my sean login, so I made a new sean2 (this one) a little while back...

My thoughts on engineering these days maybe 5+ years since I last engineered an MX5? The new toy is staying stock!

[Hjt]

(like HJT suggests, he wants more power)

Must have missed this, my SP is stock, only BOV and Radiator have been upgraded. I bought the car because I love it's current output. If i wanted more power I would have upgraded internals, ECU and injectors by now.

I'm happy with my 120 odd rwkw thanks.