Yet another stereo upgrade :)

[NitroDann]

Okibi he clearly said that he has bought his headunit already, and has no want for popular features like ipod connectivity for the sake of popular features. Hes only after sound quality, and stealthiness.
To OP, Unfortunately you will have to go out and test drive your splits(or coaxes) because opinions on sound quality are so wide, surely youve heard people say how good an ipod sounds with a 180kbps track, only to be disgusted by the clipping and complete lack of punch, and incredible high pitched squeel the whole way through each song.
Just because people think their setup sounds good does not mean that its wont sound horrible to an audiophile.
Dann

[Okibi]

Okibi he clearly said that he has bought his headunit already..

Sorry my bad.

I've never had a subwoofer in any of my cars, although I almost bought one for the wrecks.

Are those slim "under seat" subwoofers (NOT bass shakers) that focal etc. now sell any good?
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/subwoofers.html

As well as the speakers in the doors I had 2 8" speakers in my parcel shelf, this meant the stereo was easier to listen to at speed and improved the sound quality when the roof was up.

I've never played with putting headrest speakers in, what does everyone think of those as an option?

I think one of the biggest headaches with a quality audio setup in the MX-5 is adding an amp, I built mine so it doesn't take much boot space, I can still carry the space saver and I can quickly remove it for motorsport.

[muzzy66]

Bass is obviously nice but doesn't need to be nuts, as long as it's tight. I'm not really one for huge subs.

Given the lack of space in an MX5 boot, I'd imagine you also probably want something that will work nicely in a very small box...no more then 15 Litres.

Depending on how anal you are about enclosure size I'd recommend anything from an Image Dynamics ID8 (good down to around 9L sealed) up to a Peerless XXLS 10" (good down to about 14L sealed).

They cost similar money for both - the ID8 gives the advantage of taking up far less space, but the XXLS is far more musically accurate. In fact, the XXLS is one of the most accurate subwoofers money can buy for under $1,000 (they're aroound $250 - $300 for the 10").

At this point I'm thinking of going for a head unit, amp, and new 6.5" coaxial speakers. Everybody says splits are best but I really do want an 'invisible' install.

Budget is about $1500.

Does the budget include the $550 for the head unit, or is it on top of that?

Splits undoubtedly offer far greater potential interms of sound quality, but then the biggest reason for that is the ability to mount the tweeters anywhere you want - this way you can get them in a good position and get them more on axis for better frequency response in the upper frequencies. Given the extreme importance of stealth in your system, even if you did use spits you'd most likely be mounting the tweeters somewhere inconspicuous, probably off axis in the kick panels - this will pretty much cancel out almost all of the benefits of getting a split system, so a good set of coaxials might be a betterbet for whatyou want.

In the doors the NA6's take a 5" woofer with ease, and a 6' woofer at a squeeze (assuming you build a proper baffle and install them properly). The plus is that depth is a non-factor, so you have no limitations at all in terms of mounting depth - only thing you need to think about is diameter.

A 5" speaker will typically give you better midrange performance because they won't roll off as early when mounted off axis, but for most cheaper sets (and pretty much all coaxials) they will use a failry high crossover, so transition to the tweeter still won't be perfect.

A 6" speaker will typically give stronger midbass, but at the sacrifice of some upper midrange performance. Senstivity will also usually be higher on a 6" (meaning they will go louder off less power).

For a 2-way setup I wouldn't bother going any smaller then a 5" or any larger then a 6.5". The sacrifices in midbass and midrange (respectively) is too great to make it worthwhile.

There are very few 5" drivers out there that can produce decent midbass, especially in a car door. The Seas L16RN is one of the very few, but these are DIY home audio drivers so if you want to use something like this you need to do custom work...not easy. Just for the record though, DIY hifi components (at least good ones) will generally slaughter car audio components for the same price, so if you did go the splits route thats something worth considering. Madisound has a few speaker sets (such as the scanspeak, Hi-Vi and Zaph Audio splits) that are based on hifi gear but tailored for car use. All three are quite affordable and would likely outperform most car stuff for anywhere near the price.

Crescendo gear has also been getting a lot of lip services lately in car audio circles - I've yet to hear them myself, but they seem to be well designed for car use (with a high Q and low FS) and should give nice midbass performance on a reasonable budget...and theyare apparently not bad in the midrange too.

The Rainbow Germanium are a set almost perfect for car use - they should kick some serious butt, and look to have exceptional midbass. Rainbow in the past have made some nice stuff, so I'd say they should be a pretty safe bet - I'd be very surprised if they don't sound very good for what you pay. They have a nice high Q and a low fs so they should work well in a car door, and the low tweeter crossover (by car audio standards) should also present well above average midrange transition.

Outside of this, if you really want to stick with Coaxials I'd be looking at Morel, Rainbow, Hertz.

I'd suggest steering clear of the Vifa products from Jaycar - from what I've read they are NOT authentic Vifa and are actually rip-offs. No idea how they managed to use their logo and not get a lawsuit, but Ive been told that Vifa actually had a note on their website stating that these were not their products.

So far I'm looking at:
Head unit - Nakamichi MB-100
http://www.nkmca.com/auto/musicbank/MB100SPEC.HTML
I can't stand the 'midnight in tokyo' look of most (all?!) modern head units. Nakamichi have a good reputation, although it's true they're no longer in business. Bling new features are not as important to me as good sound quality. I've already bought this, $550 off eBay.

Was this bought brand new or second hand?

I'd be very careful buying high end, brand new gear off ebay. Most 'exclusive' car audio brands do not condone online sales (especially on ebay) so much of the stuff sold there from these brands is either stolen or fake. In either case, the manufacturer will NOT warrant you if you have a fault, so when buying such products be very cautious. Hopefully this one is authentic and Nakamichi do allow online sales, in which case you should be ok.

Also consider that head units purchased from some countries will use different radio frequency bands to us here, so on many 'grey import' units the radio will not work in Oz. Even if the unit is through an australian seller, doesn't mean it is australian sourced.

I'm not sure about Nakamichi, but I know that many of the popular car audio brands (including Focal) absolutely oppose online selling - there have been known (and proven) fakes from DLS, Focal, Dynaudio among others being sold on ebay. These were purchased by some people over at MEA forums (mobile electronics australia) becuase the price was too good to be true, and turned out it was. Both were confirmed by the manufacturers / distributers as fakes - very good fakes too, with only 2 or 3 very small details as give aways. For example, on one of the speakers the serial number was a sticker, while the authentic one it's engraved into the speaker. The cone colour was a slightly different tone of yellow on the fake Focals, tinsel leads were soldered differently on the dyns, etc.

Very tough to pick the fakes from the real, so again be careful...i highly recommend either buying from an authorised dealer, or (if budget limited) buying second hand from guys at legitimate places like MEA.

Amp - Focal Solid 4
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/pdfs/solid4.pdf
I've read good things about the build quality of these amps. I would bridge the connections to utilize just 2 channels. I figure this way I have some flexibility in the amp if I want to change anything later. Having said all that, I'm not really sure what amp to go for. It doesn't seem that much sets amps apart other than wattage and power handling. Should I just go for a 2 channel amp? Advice would be appreciated here.

Again it dependes on your budget, but the DLS Reference and Focal FP's are pretty nice amps for the money, along with the JL Audio Slash series. I think these are close in price to the Focal solids', but should be better performers overall. They are however, quite a bit larger. If small is your thing, also check out the ARC Audio mini amps - absolutely tiny, and still nice quality (and quite ballsy too).

Deadening - Just plain old dynamat on the doors.

Installation - I want to do this myself as it sounds fairly straightforward. If I were to go for the Focal Solid 4 I'd be using this wiring kit:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AA0442
I've not figured out where best to put the amp, but assumedly somewhere in the boot =D

Definately not under the seats! Checked under mine and there is stuff all room under there for anything. There may be enough room behind the seats for a compact amp, but risks damage if driving with the roof down in the rain. Boot is the best bet, and it's the only really 'secure' place in the MX5 (because you cant get into it without a key or screwdriver).

Spending decent money on gear will be pointless if its dodgy installed - if you're going to do it yourself, make sure you do it properly. Solder all cables correcly (not just twist and tape), build proper MDF baffles for the doors and use gasket tape to seal off the speakers from the baffles. Where possible run RCA's and Power leads along opposite sides of the car to avoid system noise and build a custom sub box with calculated dimensions specifically for the sub you use - If you decide on a sub and have the specs, I can work out the optimal enclosure size for you).

[Inksta]

Wow, thanks for the posts guys. Muzzy, that was more of a novel than a post! Many thanks.

I will audition as much as I can. Although it's tricky to know how it will sound when installed. Not like home audio stuff. I use Krix speakers at home and am very happy with them. Sounded the same in the shop as at home!

Space is definitely a factor re: amp. I have ordered a Solid 4 as it's pretty small and I like the idea that there's some flexibility available if needed. I'll put it in the boot... somewhere... Definitely no room under the seats.

As for purchasing online... Brand new was not an option as Nakamichi have gone out of business. I found someone who had an unopened MB-100 in the US. For what it's worth, I trust the seller. Thanks for the tips though. I have read a few stories about the pitfalls of buying online - hence I am buying the amp from a real shop in Adelaide (Car Gear, I didn't get a good vibe from Tonkins).

I'm not going to get a sub at this stage, sorry I gave that impression. Maybe later on. Want to hear what it's like without one first. And want to focus the funds on amp, fronts and head unit. If I do get one I'll check out the Peerless.

In answer to your other question, $1500 includes the head unit. So after $500 on the amp I have $500 left for speakers.

I'm going to take my time with the install and do it right.

Muzzy, perhaps you can answer a query I've always had: why put a sub in the boot? I mean aside from convenience. I know the nature of low frequency sounds means speaker placement is not such an issue... But surely having to pass through layers of carpet and metal before reaching the listener messes with the sound quality???

Finally, with the speakers... I thought 6.5" is the right size to fit the existing hole in the door? Have I read wrong?


Thanks again for the help, everyone.


PS. The MB-100 is compatible with Aussie radio.

[Inksta]

Oh and also, I've not found Rainbow, Morel or Hertz dealers in SA yet. Beginning to think they might not exist!

[Jeo]

Muzzy, I'm assuming you're the same Muzzy who was at the MEA ACT day the other week? If so I'd really like to meet up with you at some point (perhaps the next MEA event?) and have a listen to your setup. I read your posts over on MEA many a time when I was trying to decide on a stereo setup for my NA.

In response to the headrest speakers, don't bother. Some people her swear by them but I tried a number of different sets and didn't like any of them. Basically no matter how I played with the equaliser/amp/crossover settings, they always turned out either too bright and overpowering, or barely noticeable. More explanation in this thread.

For the sub I went with an ID8 in the rear parcel shelf and I'm very happy with it. The reasoning that convinced me to go down this path, rather than a sub in the boot, was that the rear bulkhead is massive and dulls the sound. I tried a few different subs, both 10" and 12"s, in a whole range of boxes but nothing sounded quite right. I ended up building a fibreglass box that extends into the cavity towards the boot with the sub sitting flush on the parcel shelf.

[muzzy66]

Wow, thanks for the posts guys. Muzzy, that was more of a novel than a post! Many thanks.

No problems - audio is a passion for me, so always happy to help others

I'm not going to get a sub at this stage, sorry I gave that impression. Maybe later on. Want to hear what it's like without one first. And want to focus the funds on amp, fronts and head unit. If I do get one I'll check out the Peerless.

No probs!

I spent quite some time with no sub in the MX5 - It wasn't too bad, I could live with it. Eventually I got over it though. It just limited things too much because not having a sub doesn't only give the more obvious drawback of reduced low frequency extension / impact, it also means you need to cross your mids over far lower (or even run them full range) and that leads to increased midrange distortion, reduced power handling and generally a not-so-lovely midrange. Not to the point of making a great speaker sound terrible, but definately a very noticably drop in midrange clarity compared to the lower distortion levels possible with areasonaly set crossover point (say, 80hz).

In answer to your other question, $1500 includes the head unit. So after $500 on the amp I have $500 left for speakers.

Thought this might be the case. - definately counts out the DLS/FP/Slash amps...although there are many Slash amps going second hand that you could pick up in your budget...bu if you canget the solid's for that price they are by all means said to be decent amps.

Muzzy, perhaps you can answer a query I've always had: why put a sub in the boot? I mean aside from convenience. I know the nature of low frequency sounds means speaker placement is not such an issue... But surely having to pass through layers of carpet and metal before reaching the listener messes with the sound quality???

Why? Space, plain and simple. There is really no other advantage at all to putting a sub behind you in the boot. Typically any sub that is even half worth it's price of admission is going to need an absolute bare minmum of about 10L sealed enclosure volume to give half decent extension, while the vast majority will need 14L or more. For the vast majority of cases there just isn't anywhere else in a car that you can fit an enclosure of that size without unreasonable compromise to practicality. If I could get my sub in the cabin or in the footwell and still maintain suitable volume (and practicality) I absolutely would.

There's also the factor of stealth as well - boot is naturally more secure and hidden from prying eyes.

Finally, with the speakers... I thought 6.5" is the right size to fit the existing hole in the door? Have I read wrong?

6.5" will fit, but from my experience it'll be only just using original mounting. I believe the factory speakers are right on 6", so 6.5" is a tad bigger and the biggest you'll fit if you want to keep a stealth look. If you screw straight to the door (or to avery compact baffle) then a 6" should be no biggie. I used quite solid 16mm bafflers for mine and also flush-mounted the mids, soI wasnt able to fit the clip the door covers in over the top unfortunately..I'm in the process of building some custom 'stock as possible' covers.

[muzzy66]

Oh and also, I've not found Rainbow, Morel or Hertz dealers in SA yet. Beginning to think they might not exist!

Best bet is jump on MEA (if you aren't already) and pop up a thread asking this. If there is anyone who sells those three brands in your area, someone there will know it

[muzzy66]

Muzzy, I'm assuming you're the same Muzzy who was at the MEA ACT day the other week? If so I'd really like to meet up with you at some point (perhaps the next MEA event?) and have a listen to your setup. I read your posts over on MEA many a time when I was trying to decide on a stereo setup for my NA.

That's me

I have every intention of being at the next event, so you're more then welcome to have a listen.

Right now I actually only have the sub + midbass + midrange (no tweeters) running, as my temp Eclipse head unit only supports 3-way active, but I'm developing a work around for that..going to build some custom passives for the tweeter + mid until I get the Clarion back from repair. Will hopefully have the system sounding nice at the next event

P.s.
These Fountek midrange units are seriously phenomenal. $50 / pair and they puts my $600/pair Focal 3W2 Be's to shame...

[muncher]

muzzy66:

Where is an update on your car audio install! Have I missed it somewhere! I was so excited haha

[slimx]

for a $1500 budget

i would recommend
Some NICE JL AUDIO splits you'll be paying about $750.00 (very bloody expensive)
Or go for something a TINY BIT worse but 10x cheaper maybe..
ROCKFORD FOSGATE SPLITS (Power Series) $400-500ish
2 Channel Amplifier, I wuold recommend Rockford Fosgate, KICKER or Amplifier $300.00 - $450 not worth spending more

Installation.
Sound Deadener (Dynamat branded i'd recommend) about.. $200 worth Put it all in the doors, obviously starting from the speaker area.. going uptowards covering every little thing.
As for wiring kit they are all the same thing aim for
MINIMUM 8 GAUGE power and earth wires $35 max
and 12 or 10 for speaker wiring $40 max
Buy high quality RCA's to avoid winding and what not noises.. (Gold plated end and i think its called metal threaded or something im not sure but spend atleast $35 on RCA's)
Ignition wire doesnt make a difference.

As for head unit, Nakamichi makes nice AMPS from what ive seen not exactly HEAD UNITS.

p.s. i read the first post and replied sorry if theres anything i missed

[Jeo]

That's me

I have every intention of being at the next event, so you're more then welcome to have a listen.

Right, I'll have to make sure I actually make it out to the next one then.

[muzzy66]

for a $1500 budget

i would recommend
Some NICE JL AUDIO splits you'll be paying about $750.00 (very bloody expensive)
Or go for something a TINY BIT worse but 10x cheaper maybe..
ROCKFORD FOSGATE SPLITS (Power Series) $400-500ish
2 Channel Amplifier, I wuold recommend Rockford Fosgate, KICKER or Amplifier $300.00 - $450 not worth spending more

Installation.
Sound Deadener (Dynamat branded i'd recommend) about.. $200 worth Put it all in the doors, obviously starting from the speaker area.. going uptowards covering every little thing.
As for wiring kit they are all the same thing aim for
MINIMUM 8 GAUGE power and earth wires $35 max
and 12 or 10 for speaker wiring $40 max
Buy high quality RCA's to avoid winding and what not noises.. (Gold plated end and i think its called metal threaded or something im not sure but spend atleast $35 on RCA's)
Ignition wire doesnt make a difference.

As for head unit, Nakamichi makes nice AMPS from what ive seen not exactly HEAD UNITS.

Interesting conclusions there...

Do you realise that the Nakamichi CD-700 MKII (at around $4,000 RRP) is considered by many to be the best sounding pure source available? There amps on the other hand have yet to make much of an impression and are generaly considered to be good (rather then exceptional).

Not a big fan of Kicker / Rockford for amps to be honest, likewise the Rockford speakers - definatly not a brands that ever make my shortlist on a $500 budget. Not saying they are bad, they are just a little mainstream for my taste and I think you can do better for the money. Rockford used to make some nice amps many, many years ago (back when they were still made in USA) their current day products just don't convince me.

Same can be said for Kicker and Soundream - brands that used to spell 'quality' but now have gone down the path of quantity over quality.

Definately no way I'd spend $450 on a 2-channel Rockford amp. You can get 2-channel amps from some pretty good brands (Audison, Boston, Diamond, Focal, Vibe, ARC Audio) for a ~$500 budget and I'd rate every one of these brands a level above Rockford personally.

Likewise with speakers

Each to their own though

I'd still be inclined to lean towards some of those sets at Madisound myself:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=9018
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_245_318&products_id=8865

The Scanspeak set uses the Vifa XT19 tweeters and Scanspeak Discovery mids - both are excellent drivers that are entirely on another level compared to the drivers you'd normally get on a $400 set of splits. In fact, the tweeters from the top line Polk splits (~$2,000 a set) are also based on the XT19, and there are hifi speakers costing upwards of $6,000 that use the bigger version (XT25) of the same tweeter. When it comes to making speakers Scanspeak don't mess around - and they build some of the best pure drivers (tweeters and mids) known to man and are one of the most respected speaker manufacturers in the world.

Hi-Vi are one of quado of companies (Morel, Dynaudio and DLS being the others) who build their speakers based on a somewhat shared design. Anyone who is a big time audio enthusiast has probably head of Dynaudio and Morel speakers - they are very expensive and have a cult following in the car audio market. Hi-Vi essentially builds superior Dynaudio clones for half the money. Yes, you read that right - they build speakers that are very close copies of the Dynudio design, but they cost about half the price and are significantly better performing. The set of splits in the link use a driver I'm not personally familiar with, but if you look at the close up photos further down the shoot you'll see that the basket looks very much like those on the Morel Hybrid/Ovation range (which cost around $600/pair for mids alone).

The Hi-Vi's use a nice low crossover (2.2khz) which is critical for a car setup because it allows you to minimise the midrange cap caused by off axis mounting of the midwoofer. This is EXTREMELY rare in speakers at this price point, because cheap car tweeters simply are not of a high enough quality to handle such a low crossover without pushing into severe distortion and risking damage in the long term. Even if you look at Morel (who are know for using very low crossovers) you'll see their entry level sets still cross over around 3khz or higher. DIY drivers don't live by those rules, because hard as it is to believe they simply provide far stronger performance for far less money. DIY companies invest all of their money into sound (rather then marketing, fancy looks and all the rest) and their R&D departments know a thing or two more about good sound...

If I were to spend up to $450 on a set of car splits, these would be two that would be right at the top of my list. The Hi-Vi look good on paper, but I haven't seen specific technical details on them so it's hard to pick how well those drivers perform...making them a bit of a risk. The Scanspeak drivers are known to be great performers, so they are practically zero risk. The Discover mids and XT19 tweeters are both proven quality, they are modified to work well in acar door (surprisingly most car speakers aren't) and Id imagine the crossovers are probably extermely carefully tuned (unlike most car split sets).

I'm not exhagerating at all when I say that most car audio splits < $400 will use a crossover around 4khz....way too high for a 2-way car set to actually sound any good because you're basically losing about one full octave of your midrange.

[muzzy66]

muzzy66:

Where is an update on your car audio install! Have I missed it somewhere! I was so excited haha

Haha sorry about that..I really do need to update it.

I'm on CAA / MEA a lot, but I don't really check in here all that often. My install is pretty much a constant work in progress, always going through changes, so I haven't had a system finalised long enough to make it worthy of taking pics and documenting here!

I have finally settled on a final configuration though, and I amp putting work into it now...so as this install goes on I might try and get some updates on my thread

[Entice]

For my NA, I'm thinking about a pair of boston SC65, or infinity Reference 6032.

Given it has standard headrest speakers, I'm also toying with the idea of Boston S35 in there... (completed sourced cost of 1 x pair SC 65 and 2 x pairs S35 = <$300AUD)

sorry to interrupt the thread, but I'm interested in thoughts... I definitely DONT want to run a component system as I dont want to install a tweeter on a separate location, nor install a crossover... Just dont want to irreversibly alter the car!!!

Oh, and yes, I'm a fan of Dynaudio way back.. and that's what I use at home, altyhough i didnt tick the Dyn option box on my daily (car) driver....