Roll Over Protection discussion

[Old Dude]

It is interesting that folks think this is an easy choice. I posed the analogy about a boxer wearing gloves and hitting you in the head- or perhaps are there any takers for a baseball bat swung with intent- but wait guys it is wrapped in energy absorbent material so no probs. And ask Mazda even about the NC and the roll bar- I did and it was not even a talking point. A roll bar too close to your noggin is not a good thing.

But for some drivers the risk of coming in to contact with the roll bar is non-existent. For some there is a small risk. Like everything in life these risks can be controlled and minimised as much as possible.

I would rather live with the small risk of coming in to contact with the roll bar and dealing with the consequences of that over being crushed by a 4X4 running in to and over the back of my car or at best being paralysed from the chest down after a roll over.

On the NC there is no way your head could come in to contact with the roll hoops. The seats completely separate the driver from them.

My MX 5 plus twin hoop roll bar is in a very similar position where my seat sits to the NC. Im 5'10" and have plenty of clearance from the roll bar behind me.

Cheers
Dale

[Locutus]

I posed the analogy about a boxer wearing gloves and hitting you in the head- or perhaps are there any takers for a baseball bat swung with intent- but wait guys it is wrapped in energy absorbent material so no probs.

believe it or not, boxing gloves were invented to protect the person on the receiving end of a punch. the padding is intended to absorb energy and reduce injury.

it's like modern cars and cushioned dashboards. there is a risk of passengers cracking their heads open on them in an accident - perhaps you should remove the dashboard from your car?

aussie MX5s never got the folding sunvisors fitted on JDM cars, due to risk of occupants' heads striking the A pillar in an accident - perhaps you should remove the A pillar from your car as well?


those of us fortunate enough with shorter legs have pretty much nil chance of contacting the type of aftermarket ROP being discussed here. for everyone else, you cannot deny that even a cheap piece of engineered rollbar foam will reduce the risk of head injury in collisions where there is an increased risk of ROP contact.

[snshami]

the whole rollbar debate is about shifting the statistics.

let's just apply some arbitrary numbers.

Without rollbar:
likelyhood of rear end collission: 30%
likelyhood of rear end collission Injury: 10%

likelyhood of Rollover: 5%
likelyhood of Rollover Injury: 80% (nothing above your head basically means guaranteed death)


With rollbar:
likelyhood of rear end collission: 30%
likelyhood of rear end collission Injury: 30%

likelyhood of Rollover: 5%
likelyhood of Rollover Injury: 50% (much lower death risk)



remember of course thos are complete guesses, I have no idea about the actual likelyhood of any of those events.

but basically, I look at it from the view that without a rollbar, if it rolls, I WILL die unless there's some very unlikely event that spares me.

with a rollbar, I have greatly increased the risk of my being injured in a smaller accident, but if i do ever roll, I now have a higher likelihood of being severely injured and not dead.


if I have 9 rear enders and 1 rollover, I'd prefer be more injured 9 times, and then be injured the final time in a roll.
as opposed to walking away 9 times and then being dead in a rollover.


Injuries, even severe ones, heal to a degree. Death will not.



Morlock, this topic is one that we both have strong opinions on, and I do love a good debate.
the Melbourne MX5 guys meet in Carlton every Thursday night (details in the meet section of the forum)
I would genuinely like to have a sit down one night and have a good discussion (and of course show you some of the rollbars available in case you have not seen them before) about the rollbar debate.

Rollovers are a very very rare occurence, while rear enders are very commonplace. In my life I have been rear ended twice and once rear ended someone. I never rolled. In a rear end collision it is very surprising just how far a person's head can travel. You would never realise that your neck could extend that far. A part from the possibility of whiplash injury what is much more frightening is the possibility of hitting your head on a solid immoveable steel bar. Your injury could range from a serious concussion to brain damage or even death. With enough foam you can reduce that to a maximum of a serious concussion.

With a rollover accident the result is not automatic death. While it may appear very frightening to think about very few rollovers are actually high speed flips, most are the result of an impact and then almost a slow motion rollover as usually the last thing before the car comes to a halt. As long as a person can stay inside the car space the worst that can happen and I am not saying it is pretty is being scalped. You might find it very hard to believe but the driver in the light blue NB that turned over on the mountain road during a club outing actually lived albeit with a partial scalping.

Now I am not saying that you are wrong. Like I said above my position has gone from being opposed to a rollbar to now sitting on the fence. What I am saying is that people who argue for rollbars are scaring themselves and exaggerating the dangers. There are many many more things that can kill a person. For instance that young Afghani father who was killed in Dandenong when his brand new Mazda 6 (with airbags galore) was T boned by a hoon driving a Honda Civic. One cannot cocoon oneself totally and nor should one.

Anyway, I would love to explore this further. I will be saving my pennies for a rollbar. I am not sure which one.

[Old Dude]

Here are some pictures of the MX 5 plus roll bar with the seat in its maximum back position, even in this position it would be extremely difficult to hit the bar with your head due to the seat back.

rollbar2.jpg

With my height of 5'10" the front of my seat is 5" away from the roll bar, which for me gives me piece of mind in all types of accident should one occur.

Cheers
Dale

[snshami]

Here are some pictures of the MX 5 plus roll bar with the seat in its maximum back position, even in this position it would be extremely difficult to hit the bar with your head due to the seat back.

rollbar2.jpg

With my height of 5'10" the front of my seat is 5" away from the roll bar, which for me gives me piece of mind in all types of accident should one occur.

Cheers
Dale

If your seat is not directly in the path between your head and the rollbar then there is no way that 5 inches is enough in a serious rear impact. Your seat back will flex and move more than that. Your head, if it is sticking over the seat, will move even further again.

[Old Dude]

)snshami[/quote]

If your seat is not directly in the path between your head and the rollbar then there is no way that 5 inches is enough in a serious rear impact. Your seat back will flex and move more than that. Your head, if it is sticking over the seat, will move even further again.[/quote]





Of course my head will be directly in line with the seat if I'm sitting in it, I disagree with your opinion of the flex in the seat, active head restraints in new cars actually work the opposite way, and push your head forward in a rear end collision, so the seats are more rigid than you think. If you think that the seat would flex this much then why do BMW Z4(which has a roll bar a lot futher forward than the NC and my bar), and the Audi TT (which has a bar similar to the twin hoop) have rollbars fitted if they are so dangerous to the occupants. have a look at the pictures.

Roll bar Audi_TT_Convertible.jpg

rollbarZ4.jpg

rolbar z42.jpg

Roll bar Audi_TT_v6_convertible_mk1_rear.jpg

Apart from that the added strength added accross the vehicle by the roll bar, increases my safety in a side on crash which are more common.

At the end of the day, as I have said previously its your decision and your head and I'm more than happy with my decision

PS I don't think Big dog hit his head on the bar when his car was rear ended,

Cheers
Dale

[Caffeine]

Does anyone know of a rollover accident in an MX5 where someone had been injured or killed? (I don't mean heard from a friend of a friend etc, or saw it on the net, but direct experience, i.e. observed or participated in)

Bear in mind also, that during the development of the MX5, an engineer was sent out onto a skidpan with an MX5 to attempt to roll the car. There was no possible way he could get it to roll, without some external influence. It's a very very unlikely outcome.

[snshami]

Does anyone know of a rollover accident in an MX5 where someone had been injured or killed? (I don't mean heard from a friend of a friend etc, or saw it on the net, but direct experience, i.e. observed or participated in)

Bear in mind also, that during the development of the MX5, an engineer was sent out onto a skidpan with an MX5 to attempt to roll the car. There was no possible way he could get it to roll, without some external influence. It's a very very unlikely outcome.

I'll play devil's advocate here A skidpan, I am assuming it was watered, is a wrong place to try and roll something. I suppose in real life situations where someone goes over an embankment or sideswipes a kerb travelling sideways it may be possible. But I do agree it is very very unlikely and even more so if the driver does not contribute by driving recklessly.

On the subject of the MX5 Plus rollbars fitted to the NB in the images above does anyone know if those would be approved for track work. I do agree that in an NB with higher seat backs and a shorter person the position of the roll bars is not such an issue. However when the seat back is lower down, like in an NA, and a person's head is sticking above it then obviously there is a much higher chance of making contact.

Do

[Old Dude]

Yes snshami they are approved for track work, Contact Danny or Richard at MX 5 plus he can give you all the info on what specs the bars are manufactured to.

Cheers
Dale

[Caffeine]

I'll play devil's advocate here A skidpan, I am assuming it was watered, is a wrong place to try and roll something. I suppose in real life situations where someone goes over an embankment or sideswipes a kerb travelling sideways it may be possible. But I do agree it is very very unlikely and even more so if the driver does not contribute by driving recklessly.

The driver specifically tried to roll the car. They wanted to see if it was possible in a controlled environment. As I said, without the external influence of a kerb / embankment / other vehicle, it is not possible to roll an MX5.

Try the same test in many other vehicles, and the outcome may not be the same...

[Dweezle]

I guess thats the problem though.. all of those things exist on the road.

[deviant]

Have to agree with snshami here, trying to roll a car on a skidpan with nothing to hit and no other external influences on the car is a bit odd. A roll happens because something has tried to stop the car moving and the car is tripped over. You don't have to be going sideway either, I have seen a car hit a wall head on and then roll sideways!

[Mr nanotech]

Lol looks like everyone has beat me with the comments about the skinpan.
I agree completely though. The skinpan is a relatively controlled environment and it's hard to make the car roll over as such. On the road it only takes is an understeer and one of your wheels to dig into the soft ground off the road and over she goes. I actually know a couple of people who've done this (albeit not in an mx5).
I know people say roll overs aren't commonplace and are extremely unlikely, but I personally believe it all comes down to what you use the car for. The likelihood of one of these accidents may be rare for the average daily driver but for those who push their car a little more or play around, then the odds are exponentially higher. So really It comes down the driver's own discretion if it's necessary or not. But then you could argue that the road is a completely uncontrolled environment and even passive driving, you don't know what could be around the next corner. First hand, i can say I've been in a few accidents now, in the mx5, my old commodore and even my first car. NONE of those accidents were my own fault. Granted I never rolled over once so you could probably negate this whole point I'm making now, but what I'm saying is that you don't know how it can pan out. Like it's been said before, people have been T-boned and rolled from borderline standstill. My friends nb was written off because he was cruising home on a ringroad and the road had a mix of oil and water on the surface causing the car to go into a spin he couldn't control and up an embankment. It wasn't a complete roll over but it was on it's side. Had it have tipped over a little more, who knows how it could have turned out.
I'm not saying it's a do or don't. And I'm aware I've contradicted myself by saying it's up to the individual as well as there are freak accidents. But I think those are two points that need to be weighed up when driving a convertible. The fact still remains that you do not have a solid structure above your head and if in the rare occurance that push does indeed come to shove, you have nothing protecting your head from above.

[snshami]

Actually what made me change my mind was a comment that Jeremy Clarkson while driving an E type in Meet the Neighbours. He had a tyre that deflated and he was saying how lucky he was that it wasn't a high speed blowout because he had no rollbar or seat belts.


So now that you have all made me a bit paranoid please guide me a bit about the pros and cons of a BD type bar vs what people seem to refer to as an MX5 Plus (Mr Morlock, I know I am just giving you more ammunition so blast away to your heart's content ).

To me it seems that the BD type sits far higher, makes the car look very much like it is a racer and would seem to be the safest because it would provide the greatest space above a tall driver's head.

The MX5 Plus style with the braced twin hoops seems more contemporary sports car hoop like but appear significantly lower down. About two thirds of my skull protrudes over the top of my seat when in maximum upright position.

What would be ideal is an MX5 Plus style bar that is as high as the BD style.

Does such an animal exist? Which one should I go for. If I someday want to go into Motorsports will only the BD do?

[Caffeine]

You'd better wear a helmet when crossing the road, far greater chance of being hit by a car than rolling your MX5...