How much grip is too much - Is more grip always better

[de Bounce]

The RE001 debate - got to love it when we compare red and green apples.

Listen, we only throw in all the RE001 plugs because it upsets some people so much.

It may be targeted to upset some people but confuses the hell out of everyone else.

[93_Clubman]

The consensus seems that one of the very good tyres to fit is the Bridgestone RE001.

The concensus is that they are well priced for what they deliver if you get them for just over $100 per corner, not that they're a very good tyre.

My question about the RE001 is whether they have too much grip. Is there a possibility that the car will lose some of the fun factor.

No & No

So I am a bit divided. I do want a bit more of a safety margin but also do not want to lose any of the fun of the car.

No fun if you feel you need to drive at 70kph in a derestricted zone just because it's wet.

I guess I don't want to risk losing the magic feel of the mex.

If Norm Garrett's thoughts are of interest to you: "Up to a 205mm wide tire can help a Miata handle better..."

...there are obviously two schools of thought on the RE001 and they appear diametrically opposite.

RE001s are/were made in Japan, Australia, & Thailand or Taiwan, & have varied in the wet depending on where they were made. My understanding is Japanese & Thai or Taiwanese RE001s are all that's available, given they stopped making them in Australia about 12 months ago. From memory the Japanese RE001s were better in the wet than the Australian ones & seemingly also better than the Thai or Taiwanese ones.

[Guran]

RE001s are/were made in Japan, Australia, & Thailand or Taiwan, & have varied in the wet depending on where they were made. My understanding is Japanese & Thai or Taiwanese RE001s are all that's available, given they stopped making them in Australia about 12 months ago. From memory the Japanese RE001s were better in the wet than the Australian ones & seemingly also better than the Thai or Taiwanese ones.

Just to clairfy, I was recently given some bum information on RE001s being made in Thailand. The replacements for Aussie-made RE001s are now coming from Taiwan (not Thailand).

[93_Clubman]

Tks for the clarification Guran - I thought I read there was a bit of uncertainty about whether it was Thailand or Taiwan.

[snshami]

The guy at the Bridgestone store told me the source was Thailand.

[93_Clubman]

The guy at the Bridgestone store told me the source was Thailand.

May be he was also confused by this thread

[Tony]

I've been told that RE001s are also being made in Spain, India and eastern Europe. Basically anywhere you can get cheap labour; and the quality relects this.

Personally I'd have thought Bridgestone were more astute than that!

[project.r.racing]

I will only buy tyres manufactured in Japan or South Korea. Yes Korea!

[Caffeine]

Outright grip is not a useful measure of a tyre.

What happens when you exceed the limit of grip, every tyre will have some grey area between grip and no grip. A super grippy tyre with a small grey area would be no good al all. It would encourage you to use up all the grip, and then punish you severely if you stepped over the limit.

I've said in another thread that the RE001's I have fitted to my MX5 (205/45-16, japanese made) are the best tyres I've dríven on. Note I didn't say the grippiest. Grip is quite high, but the tyre is very progressive and controllable when it does let go, both in the dry and in the wet.

I've recently fitted Michelin PS3 to my other car (225/45-17) and they also feel very confidence inspiring, wet and dry. Haven't had them anywhere near their limit yet though.

[VTECMACHINE]

don't over think things. and don't campare apples to oranges.

unless you are running a 225 or wider tyre, then you ain't gonna have a problem with grip levels.

also, you have a stock suspension, so you ain't maximizing your total grip anyways.

Am I that obvious. I do tend to over think sometimes. I guess I don't want to risk losing the magic feel of the mex.

I totally agree with you there though mate. I find that too much grip to be annoying or boring. My new wheel alignment has given me too much rear end grip, which has made the car to become to predictable. I'm using crap chinese Maxxis tyres aswell. I think when i'm due for a new set of tyres i'll dial some camber out of the rear and add some toe out in the rear.

[16bit]

i found the biggest effect to fun factor is not the tyre its self but your suspension setup and geometry of your entire road contact package. for example I had some shitty old p6000's on stock wheels and suspension and they where pretty rubbish. the car drove well enough unless pushed where it would let go without much progression.

I then got some tein coil overs and it was better. eventually though they could not make up for the lack of grip and predictability i wanted.

i got some jap made re001's and they were excellent in both wet and dry. if you are driving at legal speeds those tyres in 195 section are more then enough for a lightly tuned 5.

i then got some track wheels with semis and the car was still fun on the road and track even though the wheels were wider and had a lower offset - widening the track.

after this i got some really wide (in context of a 5) wheels at 8 inches with a very low offset of 0. i also got some toyo r1r's which have quite a bit more grip then the re001's. i think overall the extreme wide track created by the low offset wide wheels had a much great effect on the fun factor of the car. it had heaps more grip but will not let go with as much progression, making the car a bit more twitchy on the edge.

overall in my personal experience I think that track width can have a much more profound effect on fun factor than the relative grip of the rubber compound of your tyre.

[ForceMajeure]

I apologise for re-starting the REOO1's debate by giving my frank opinion based on my experience, honestly i had them several years ago and they were the Aussie ones, which is why they sucked (this is well documented BTW), From all accounts the Japanese versions or other countries versions sound much improved given their relative cheap price in the scheme of things, so i reserve judgment on the current version.

[NitroDann]

More grip is always better for going around the same corner in the same conditions faster, regardless of suspension, unless you roll your car (not bloody likely).

re001's are good tyres for 120 odd dollars and 195/50r15's seem to be cheap enough have decent grip and yet you will still be able to throw your car sideways at scary speeds, so they are good in all worlds.

Its simple, if you want to go around corners faster get grippier tyres.

But, with grippier tyres usually gives less forgiving handling, ie, when they do start to slide they will not lose 10% of grip as you slide it may be 40% of grip, making it very hard to 'catch' the car.

By the way surely everyone with coilovers (real ones not 'street' coilovers) has trouble with rear end grip on acceleration in the first 3 gears? My NA car drifts 4th gear in the wet on re001's.

Dann

[Charlie Brown]

I totally agree with you there though mate. I find that too much grip to be annoying or boring. My new wheel alignment has given me too much rear end grip, which has made the car to become to predictable. I'm using crap chinese Maxxis tyres aswell. I think when i'm due for a new set of tyres i'll dial some camber out of the rear and add some toe out in the rear.

Sorry VTECMACHINE that may be fine for a front wheel drive Honda but not an MX-5.

May I warn everyone NOT to have toe out on the rear of your MX-5. With this set up you will get snap oversteer both during hard cornering and under brakes. I’d hate to see you take yourself and other innocents out running an alignment like this on the road.

The MX-5 was designed with almost neutral handling. Standard it has a touch of understeer and can be easily controlled when travelling fast through multiple corners. Muck around putting in rear toe out to get the rear to slide to have "fun" is just asking for trouble.

If you have too much rear grip, work on improving front grip. Increase the front camber, bring the front toe back to zero or even go slight toe out to improve turn in. If you have adjustable sways, back off the front sway bar or firm up the rear bar.

[ForceMajeure]

+1 to Charlie Brown