Non R Spec Tyres for track days

[Samselectrics]

Tell me about it. Due to financial constraints, I'm back in the minor leagues and it's absolutley brutal. Come to think of it, that's what this whole post is about.

It's interesting that this discusion has lead to the use of S Spec Tyres in the standard classes. Given the massive improvements in these tyres over the last couple of years, we've been looking at and discussing the direction of this with our expereinced members for a while now. The issue is that 1) there is very little between S and R specs bringing together standard and modified classes (dunno if that's a problem) and 2) it creates a new benchmark for the standard classes hense all the records, which of course means people with ordinary passenger tyres need to spend money to be competitive. In saying that most sports car drivers will select a good tyre so there is very little that are disadvantaged from this.

It's earmaked for discusion in the future but I feel we have it right at the moment. Allowing R spec for standard classes will disclude a lot of people and restricting S specs given that all sports car drivers use them and they are so cheap will be a backward step.

The next 12 months will be interesting. Personally, my priority is to include as many as we can.

Sam

[Damo]

In my opinion, the sole reasons for limiting the permissible tyres in standard classes is to ensure that the tyres that can be run competitively are both affordable and are practical to use regularly on the road.

It would make no sense to preclude the use of "S-Spec" tyres in standard classes because - short of enforcing the use of absolute rubbish - S-Spec's are no more expensive to run than the next lower performance-level of tyres, nor are they impractical to use on road. The best of the tyres that are the next step down in performance are actually MORE expensive than many of the S-Spec's are and whilst they offer good grip and better on-road life, they wouldn't offer any better life on the track. With S-Spec tyres I've found that the compound will be heat cycled to death by the time that the tread has worn to the wear indicators. Using lower-performance tyres will simply mean that they will become uncompetitive - and therefore useless to those who care about their results - at about the same mileage, hence costing more. R-Spec's are considerably more expensive to buy and will not last longer. S-Spec's represent the sweet spot for cost for those who run events regularly. Furthermore, it is pointless to suggest that new competitors or very infrequent competitors will be uncompetitive on normal street tyres because no new competitor is going to be competitive on any tyres and very few infrequent competitors are either.

The tyre list provided by CAMS is of no use to classify tyres that are ineligible for these classes because it is not and cannot be all-encompassing. Some S-Spec's are submitted for approval for use in classes that do allow R-Spec's, but do not allow all out racing tyres, but many are not because they would not be competitive anyway. That list could only be of use to decide what is permissible in a class. We are not in F1 here; this is friendly competition. It is pretty which tyres are outright R-Spec's and which are not. Whilst the R1R's are mentioned in some of Toyo's motorsport literature, they are specifically mentioned for use in club-level motorsport for vehicles that are regularly used on the road and also in wet conditions, as apposed to the R888 and the like, which are often specifically not recommended for street or wet use by their manufacturers. Teruo, you know as well as anybody else that your DZ1's are faster (in the dry) than Sam's R1R's - just as I know that my KU36 are too.

The important distinction is what can be used as a day-to-day tyre. S-Spec's work because, for those who compete regularly enough to be competitive, they are as affordable and practical to use year-round as normal modern Ultra High Performance tyres - and there is no point limiting people to inferior technology just for the sake of emulating 1989 - whilst they are considerably cheaper than the R-Spec's (which I certainly couldn't justify using).

[Damo]

Just a quick addition: Whilst the minimum tread wear rating that Guran mentioned does suffer from the issue that Matty pointed out, it is at least a definitive, concrete "line-in-the-sand" and I don't know of any tyres with Treadwear <140 that are not useable street tyres.

Also, I've seen numerous cheap tyres destroyed in a single day, so enforcing the use of genuine OEM-type tyres may not result in the desired savings.

[Guran]

Some excellent discussion here.

Can someone please tell me which S specs I can buy locally in 185/60R14 (or similar) for around $100 each? That's what I'm paying for RE001s which I've set my class record with, and they've lasted a full season. Last time I checked, the cheapest S specs were around $200 each. That's a very significant difference in price, IMHO.

And now the big question, if S specs are so similar to R specs in terms of both performance and price (range $220-$300), why bother with banning R specs in standard classes? Yes they're the most expensive tyres, give inferior grip in daily driving, wear quickly and are noisy as hell so you'd be nuts to use them every day. A second set of rims fixes that. Stock NA rims are also giveaway items, and NB not much more.

[emexv]

Some excellent discussion here.

Last time I checked, the cheapest S specs were around $200 each. That's a very significant difference in price, IMHO.

And now the big question, if S specs are so similar to R specs in terms of both performance and price (range $220-$300), why bother with banning R specs in standard classes? Yes they're the most expensive tyres, give inferior grip in daily driving, wear quickly and are noisy as hell so you'd be nuts to use them every day. A second set of rims fixes that. Stock NA rims are also giveaway items, and NB not much more.

They're a bit cheaper than that Guran. Around $175-$180 for KU36 or R1R's (what I was quoted)

[Guran]

KU36 and R1R don't come in 14" as far as I can see. 15" is available but those rims aren't allowed for standard NAs. Any other S specs in 14"? The $200 I mentioned was for Star Specs in January.

[philz]

Maybe look into importing?

Much larger range from Japan or US (good currency atm)

They make R1R, and Bridgestone RE11 in 185/60.

[Matty]

15" is available but those rims aren't allowed for standard NAs.

Says who?

Regarding cost - I hate to say this, but suck it up princess. When you're paying $150-200 per round for entry, maybe $100 for fuel, wearing $50 worth of brake pads and oil and other consumables per track day, the cost of tyres is not worth arguing about.

The problem is that noone can accurately define where an Ultra High Performance road tyre becomes an "S-spec" (whatever that is), or where that becomes an "R-spec" (again, there is no formal definition, and some are virtually slicks)

Going back on what I said, yes you could use treadwear as an easy parameter for assessment. It's there on the sidewall and it's easily enforceable. The only other enforceable parameter is the DOT imprint (indicating it is road legal), or conversely the "not for highway use" badge.

A slightly more parctical but slightly less workable definition of a street tyre might be "one that is publically available from a multitude of non-specific tyre suppliers" - ie, rule out those tyres that are only available from Stuckeys/Traction Tyres/Meridian/etc. So, if the local Bob Jane can't get them, neither can you.

Failing any of that, just adopt someone else's standard (eg USA Autocross)

[fattima]

Wow hasn't this kicked off!

Whatever the club decides to do I think we really need to bear in mind not just current competitors but how the decisions may affect new members wanting to join in. If last Sunday is any indication we are generating a lot of interest, I had three people come over to chat and ask about getting involved.

Bearing this in mind I think most people who are starting out would expect to have to put some decent tyres on their car. So there would be little point in making them go to OEM equivalent or a control type tyre, you are just going to turn people away when they just want to have some fun. "S spec" tyres (I must have been out of class when this new term arrived) are here to stay. Yep they are fast tyres and pushing into R spec territory, but we can't hold tyre technology back. As Matty pointed out they are not that expensive when you look at the cost of taking your car to the track.

To keep things simple I think we have two options

1. Allow all classes to run R spec tyres.
2. Keep the rules as they are and the club maintains a list of R spec tyres that are allowed.

I personally like option 2, it would take a bit of updating and will cause arguments (as we have already seen), but it will mainly be the more experienced guys arguing and not pushing away the new members. Really the rules on tyres have worked pretty well until recently, and most of the problems I can see are due to an outdated tyre list and a lack clear decision making in respect to what is an R spec. I'm not having a crack at the motorsport team here as none of us raised it at the annual motorsport meeting when we had the chance. There should also be some clear communication when decisions such as the allowing of a certain tyre are made as pitlane rumours are not helpful to anyone. Most of us are on email so a simple tyre update could be issued when changes are made and the club website and newsletter updated.

But whatever you decide you ain't keeping me away from the track, I'm having too much fun!

BTW Guran in Vic we allow 15 inch wheels in standard class.

[Matty]

Ahha, I missed that he's from NSW...

[emexv]

Wow hasn't this kicked off!

I never expected to ignite so much controversy.

I wonder what I can come up with next

[Charlie Brown]

Found the tyres: http://player.video.news.com.au/carsgui ... RgJW4aFJpF



Worth the wait while loading.

[Guran]

Humble apologies . I'm in NSW and have been caught out once before by that Victorian wheel size ruling (I think fattima sorted me out last time too!). In my defence, I can't see where the Vic rules specifically say that 15" wheels are accepted in Standard NA class, but I can see that 195mm is the maximum tyre width. Wheels are listed as a free mod in all classes but does that mean wheel brand (same size) or wheel size? "Wheel size" is listed as acceptable in Modified class, so I just put the two together and assumed it meant 15s were out for Standard NA. Maybe that's another thing that could be tightened up in the next revision of the rules?

15s are definitely not permitted in NSW for Standard NA (and tyre width is capped at OEM size applicable to each NA model, ie 185mm for NA6).

Matty, I agree completely with your point about bearing the cost of motorsport. No debate, it's not a cheap hobby. However, you could say the same thing about using R-specs in standard classes. I am already bearing that cost with a set of RE55s for supersprints and a set of RE001s for club trackdays.

Ultimately, what you guys decide to do in Vic is none of my business since I won't be competing in the Vic Championship. All I'm trying to do here is point out some things you might want to think about.

Maybe look into importing?

That would be an option in Vic but not NSW since the tyres need to be commercially available here according to Mike Hicks.

Much larger range from Japan or US (good currency atm)

They make R1R, and Bridgestone RE11 in 185/60.

I checked Tire Rack and they don't stock RE-11 or R1R in 14" (only Star Specs at US$96 each - good price!). I don't know where to start with Japanese suppliers. Any suggestions for either?

[philz]

Might have to look at a broker.

www.jessestreeter.com

Send him an Email, he should be able to give you an answer.

[Matty]

Humble apologies . I'm in NSW and have been caught out once before by that Victorian wheel size ruling (I think fattima sorted me out last time too!). In my defence, I can't see where the Vic rules specifically say that 15" wheels are accepted in Standard NA class, but I can see that 195mm is the maximum tyre width. Wheels are listed as a free mod in all classes but does that mean wheel brand (same size) or wheel size? "Wheel size" is listed as acceptable in Modified class, so I just put the two together and assumed it meant 15s were out for Standard NA. Maybe that's another thing that could be tightened up in the next revision of the rules?

195 tyre size is specified.

There used to be a defined wheel size limit, but the wording was changed (see "free mods") to "must meet roadworthy specifications" - which in VicRoads parlance means +1" diameter and +1" width, and no more than 12?mm offset change. Which effectively limits NAs to a 15x7ET35 or so, which oddly enough is what I had previously defined (offset excepted)