Non R Spec Tyres for track days

[rain902]

btw
text doesnt convey a lot of emotion and my clinical, dry wording is sometimes mistaken for nastiness or anger. Its not.

mood=happy

[Guran]

Yeh I didn't bother including the Pirellis in that S spec list since they price themselves way out of the market. Two R specs for the price one S spec?

This is the CAMS-approved Production Car Tyre List I was talking about:
CAMS Manual, General Requirements for Cars and Drivers, Schedule E - Wheels and Tyres

I see this list is actually very similar to the one in the MX-5 Club of Vic Motorsport Championship Rules, although the latter is obviously out of date. If the club wants to stick with a similar approach, then there's value in simply referencing the CAMS Manual rather than creating another list. That way you avoid the need for regular updates which CAMS look after anyway.

However, this doesn't address the S specs issue because some are included on the above "Production Car Tyre List", but others are not. Why should KU36 or Star Specs be permitted in standard classes but 595RSR, Ventus and Azenis be excluded? All of them are S specs and all are targetted at those who want "excellent handling performance on both street and track" (quoting the R1R blurb). CAMS could easily add them to their list since there's no reason why people shouldn't use them on the track, but those who want to be competitive wouldn't bother since they're slower than R specs. In the same way, there's nothing stopping people from using regular road tyres in modified classes.

Clearly there's need for a decision on whether or not S specs should be eligible in standard classes. In NSW, Mike Hicks' position was that "Basically if a tyre is sold to the general public and has a wear rating of 140 minimum then OK for classes 1,2 & 3." That's pretty clear, but do tyres sold only by motorsport tyre specialists count? Not sure about that one. James - I wish you well in your mission to iron out the wrinkles.

The Vic/NSW Interstate Challenge at Phillip Island will be an interesting test case. Very few of us in NSW standard classes are using S specs (Glenn Thomas has KU36s on his NB, but he's the only one I think), so I'm not expecting we'll pick up many points there!

[Matty]

Ah, memories

I recall that list was poached from the WRX Club rules (which were liberally raided to write the last major revision of the Vic MX-5 Club rules some 5 years ago).

Yes it is the role of the motorsport captain to keep it up to date.

However there's a conundrum to face, in the fact that the rules have multiple goals: intention, fairness and enforceability.

The intention of "street tyres" in standard class is that anyone should be able to take a completely standard car from the factory that they use every day, turn up, drive, and be competitive in that class.

Obviously this clashes with the fairness, in that once your factory tyres wear out you are unlikely to fit OEM tyres again. And since different tyres have different performance level, the guy on the OEM tyres is at a disadvantage.

And again, what with marketing being as it is, almost any tyre on the market claims to have some motorsport heritage, if not applicability. The choices are a continuous spectrum, not black and white S- vs R-Spec. So enforceability becomes a nightmare. Using wear ratings is a danger because it's not translatable between different manufacturers. This was discussed 5 years ago.

There are only a few easily enforceable solutions to this, and none is optimal, but really this is the only way you can logically stay on top of it:
1) allow all road legal tyres (up to and including R specs)
2) have a specified list of allowable "street" tyres, that will be regularly updated by the Captain. If it's not on the list, it's banned.
3) define a "control" tyre for all competitors.

Personally I think option 1 is the only workable answer. No it's not fair. But motorsport isn't fair.
While I'm here rambling, it's time to give the rules a good overhaul and strip them back to basics...

[Tony]

Apologies to Mark for taking his thread even further off topic...

The intention of "street tyres" in standard class is that anyone should be able to take a completely standard car from the factory that they use every day, turn up, drive, and be competitive in that class.

-snip-

There are only a few easily enforceable solutions to this, and none is optimal, but really this is the only way you can logically stay on top of it:
1) allow all road legal tyres (up to and including R specs)
2) have a specified list of allowable "street" tyres, that will be regularly updated by the Captain. If it's not on the list, it's banned.
3) define a "control" tyre for all competitors.

Perhaps it's being somewhat simplistic, however a slight variation on Matty's suggestion above may work.

For cars in the "standard" class you must use the OEM tyre only; thereby creating a default control tyre. In circumstances where the OEM tyre is no longer available, the OE manufacturers replacement tyre could be substituted. This would be a fairly short and simple list to maintain.

In all other "modified" classes it's open slather, so long as the tyres are road legal. How much tyre you buy is dependent upon how deep your pocket are, and/or how seriously you take your motorsport.

Just my two bobs worth...

[rain902]

For cars in the "standard" class you must use the OEM tyre only; thereby creating a default control tyre. In circumstances where the OEM tyre is no longer available, the OE manufacturers replacement tyre could be substituted. This would be a fairly short and simle list to maintain.

In all other "modified" classes it's open slather, so long as the tyres are road legal.

Just my two bobs worth...

that has merit although the OE tyre is in the case of SNA 20 years old, and in the case of SNB 10 years old and in the case of SNancy 5 years old. No one is going to go with the standard tyres for daily driving and in the case of standard or clubman classes we like to introduce the sport to new drivers, asking a kid (young or old) to take his nice sporty rims off and shove a set of cheesecutters on just to trundle round in a competitive class is counterproductive methinks.

I note that the rex club is seriously considering car/driver classes as a solution to their rampant chea#ing er um incorrect classification of cars - as the engines/turbos./ecus all look the same from the outside and they have been quite lax with their declarations theyve proposed classes A through to D - if you win too many D class you go into C and so forth. If you have a ffast car and cant drive it you may well end up in C class. Theres merit in that too but it would have to be looked at after a year of seeing where the rexxes need to improve. I note that bicycle racers and other sports (footy) get classified this way too.

[Tony]

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting people drive around on 20 year old tyres; heaven forbid!! But what I'm suggesting is the same tyre brand, model and size (or the current equivalent offered by the OE manufacturer).

I take your point about asking "kids" to take off their bling rims and tyres, however if you want to run in the "standard" class, then I see that as a realistic expectation. I see plenty of guys taking off their flash street rims and retro-fitting standard rims for club track days.

I guess it will ultimately depend on how seriously you want to take it. Personally I'm in it for the fun; I couldn't care less what class I run, or whether I win points or not. I do acknowledge however, that there are others who take their motorsport (even club level stuff) with a lot more fervour that I do!

Regards...

[rain902]

I went for the cheaper and obviously more contriversial Proxes R1R. Sam

Cointreauversial can be a good thing sometimes.

[manga_blue]

Glad to see this getting off-topic in such an agreeable way. There are two of my favourite things there.

[Guran]

So you like the left one AND the right one, eh Phil?

[Samselectrics]

It's funny to sit back and watch this unfold. I know it's a public forum but Oh my God. We've gone from needing a clarification on a tyre to a complete chuck out of the rules that have created the smile factory that is MX5Vic Motorsport today. Though I wasn't at the Motorsport meeting this year, I understand that 99% of our motorsport competitors are against changing our rules and think they work well.

I do however welcome the discusion/debate as it is sorted publicly and the decision, though some may disagree with it, is made with all of the knowledge available. I'll hold off on comment on the tyres other than to say welcome oboard Matty (Key player in implementing our current systems) and Teuro. You have MUCH TOO MUCH time on your hands.

[Matty]

I guess I approach it from a very good understanding of the current rule system, being (now) completely impartial, and having watched the rules slowly mutate in the last few years in ways that I sometimes disagree with.

I've discussed with Fatty before and am always happy to lend my opinion

[rain902]

You have MUCH TOO MUCH time on your hands.

being largely retired can be a Good Thing


When you picked out the Toyo R1Rs did you think it would cause this amount of Mayhem? and if you had the chance to reconsider it all would you make the same choice?

[manga_blue]

I'm pretty happy with the rules as they are except I do have some concerns about how we handle evolution of tyre performance.

At the last Winton day I had Princey on my tail. I was on Dunlop R-specs that, in typical Dunlop fashion, had decided to sulk a bit after lunch. Princey had Dunlop Star Specs and he clearly had a lot more grip than I did. I could just see it through every corner. Similarly he matched Bruce's R888 times to a few 100ths at Sandown last week. Yes, he's a good pilot but he's also running on rails.

My concern is that running tyres like that is mandatory for big points in what should be the cheaper fun classes.

Teruo alluded to something like a capabiliy based classing model in the rex club. It got me thinking back to my competitive golf days - handicapping within classes works very well there. Just blue-skying but, while I think our classes are very good, maybe some handicapping could even those standard classes up again. Tyres would be the main target. Maybe take a list of allowable street tyres yet add a penalty to some of the more heroic ones e.g +1 sec for Star Specs, +0.5 sec for KU36s, etc. Nightmare to decide but the outcome could be a much fairer base comp.

[Matty]

Tyre evolution is just something you have to live with. As long as everyone can buy the same rubber, then everyone is in the same boat.

But what you describe also suggests that my proposal for an "all in" rule is likely the best - if you can't pick the difference between a "street" tyre and a "street legal track tyre" then you may as well not differentiate.

I don't agree that any sort of handicap or bracket system is necessary.

[Guran]

Sam, you can laugh but standard classes are no less competitive than all the rest (Showroom Spec Miata anyone?). And when tyres are the second-most important factor in those classes (after driver ability), you can see why it's important to get the rules sorted.

Of the options Matty listed, I personally favour the first one: OEM tyres or nearest equivalent only, in standard classes. S specs clearly have a massive advantage and should not be allowed in standard classes for club championships on the grounds of cost, fun and integrity. If a good driver can't jump into a stock car on OEM tyres and be competitive, then something's not right.