What is in our fuel systems that makes it non E-fuel friendl

[timk]

I tried E10 in our Protege and the fuel usage jumped up 1-1.5L per 100km; false economy!

E85 on the other hand could be considered poor man's race fuel?

[bruce]

Plenty of articles tuning turbo'd cars on E85 and getting gains across the board.
From what's been said, it could be hard making it work in the long term in a 5. I wonder if you could run it only for sprints, and then run it on normal fuel to flush it out?

[StanTheMan]

you probably could but you'd have to be carefull.
theoretically if you ran a standard ECU you would want to increase the base timing a little. you'd have to drive around with a timing light & a 12mm spanner & readjust the timing depending on what fuel you are running. & then re-adust the fuel regulator to reduce the fuel flow

with the ajustable ECU the advantage you have you can take better advantage of it all.

regardless you'd have to drive around with a laptop & make sure you're not out of battery when you need to change the map. or always make sure you have the timing light & spanner with you.

Thats on a NA6 of course Later NA8's have a knock sensor.....right?
so its probably less of an issue.

[Mr Morlock]

the opening post ..."spectacular" results- what does that mean- specifically?

Mazda do not recommend E10 for the MX5 before 7/05.
Mazda site says about ethanol Quote
* There is an increased possibility of metal fuel tanks and lines corroding or rusting
* The chance of plastic fuel tanks swelling and breaking down is increased
* The possibility of plastic and rubber fuel lines deteriorating is increased
* There is a possibility of fuel injector O-rings breaking down
* Carburettor floats and seals are susceptible to deterioration
* Certain engine components may not be compatible with ethanol
* Engine management mapping parameters may not be fully compatible with E10, creating idle, driveability and starting concerns, plus hot weather performance issues "unquote

The Govt has legislated for E10

E85 is 85% ethanol- in view of the above what would you expect and where do you buy the fuel?

Hammer is right about testing- Drive did this about 12-18mths ago and even E10 is not a money saver as economy drops around town

[Kain]

The 'spectacular results' the OP refers to would be power. Ethanol is much more knock-resistant than petrol, although it lacks the energy density (it has a small bang if you use the exact same amount). In race applications, the use of ethanol means you can advance the timing much further due to the knock resistance, netting you more power. However, due to the lower energy density you need to inject a lot more of it! Bigdog has already mentioned this.

In all the criteria for someone with no racing desires, petrol is superior to ethanol except $/L. I haven't been bothered enough to calculate $/km, which is what you really should use for comparison. I'm going to guess that the OP is thinking more along the lines of a competitive car, rather than a daily driver.

[mx52nv]

Hi everyone,
There are 4 or 5 race cars running E85 here at Wanneroo Barbagallo Raceway.
Each of them have made the conversion for the performance gains (105 octane) not for fuel economy.
E85 is 105 octane and ethanol is 115 octane so there is a distinction and we must be clear on what we are referring to.

As most of the afore-mentioned race cars were already running bigger injectors, there were no other modifications needed apart from a tank of E85 and a dynotune. Ashley Barnett's S14 runs E85 with factory rubber hoses everywhere and normal high pressure fuel lines or hard (metal) lines.

To the OP (Mark) - Any NA/NB/NC MX5 will be able to take E85 with bigger injectors and a retune (programmable ECU is a must) to get the most gains.

But just wait till I am done with the new build and I'll post the results up here (Ultimate 98 vs E85).

Les @ MX5 Shop

[whoa_dang_96]

The biggest problem with compatibility is corrsion in metal fuel lines, fuel rails and tanks.

Ethanol based petrol absorbs water - more than normal petrol - especially with undergournd bowser tanks. The water content causes corrosion in metal (zinc/nickel coated that is) parts - hence the need for specilised plastic fuel tanks and stainless steel fuel rails etc. How many BA falcons have you seen that just stop on the side of the road - more than likely the cause is the inside of the fuel rail has corroded and the corrosion particles fill the regualtor and injectors and no fuel gets to the engine - I have a fuel rail cut open somewhere and it is quite clear what the problme is. Hence when you ring ford they only supply a stainless steel fuel rail now for BA/BF etc

No doubt, due to the different characteristics of ethanol content fuels, manufacturers have not optimisted the ECU cal for efficiency/emmissions/performance etc

[bigdog]

My experience is with methanol fuel in supercharged race cars - and we would drain the fuel from the tank after each meeting and clean the carby thoroughly. The white milky residue water contamination leaves was always evident when cleaning - alcohol is incredibly hygroscopic and water would be present after only a couple of days. Rubber lines may last a while, but as whoa said the metal fuel lines will corrode quickly.

[Benny]

Holden exports the Commodore into South America, and those Commodores can take E85 with no problems, however, they are a little different to the Commodores sold here, as they have stainless steel fuel lines etc.
Also, their ECU measures what is in the fuel, and can adjust various parameters to suit the fuel whether it be E85, or E10 or just straight petrol.
Saab also sell into South America, but they now build all their cars to take virtually any mix of ethanol and petrol regardless of where it is sold.

I think that using E85 for racing is one thing, and using that fuel on the road is quite different.
As Big Dog said, they clean the fuel tank and carbys after each days racing.
For those guys using methanol or E85 in their racing MX-5 and still using the OEM rubber fittings etc., because they aren't used every day, they may last a little while especially if the fuel is run right out after the day's racing, but eventually they will start to perish.
Maybe not so bad on a racing car, but for an everyday car, you will curse yourself if you use a lot of E85 as you will eventually get some serious problems with your fuel system.

There are a few petrol stations selling E85 around Sydney, and I know of one in Marrickvlle also.
Mind you, whenever I've gone past, I rarely see any cars in there filling up.

[mx52nv]

Not going to get into a debate about anymore E85 myths, here is why I would use E85

Streets of Willow CW w/ blowpass.
Kraftwerks race kit prototype with an Adaptronic ECU the owner of the car installed. Tune is bit rough. Stock long block so we kept the boost down to 9.2psi. Making 230whp on E85. Throttle cable was sticking, combined with tune being off made throttle control when tipping in a bit tricky. That's why I'm a little rough. Will post some more onboard videoes once we get the ECU dialed and new throttle. Anyway, its the new absolute lap record for Miatas on this track configuration.

[GP]

Cannot see any environmental benefits with e85, There's a good chance it's worse than petrol. It's also not practical because there will never be enough produced for every body.
BTW. Everyone knows the supercars run the stuff don't they?

[Redondo]

I wanted to bump this topic to see if forum members have updated experiences with e85. The commodore is now releasing as being able to take e85 and more availability at the pumps means it will be a lot more common.

I am interested in how much the conversion would be for NA with injector changes, lines, ecu and pumps (and anything else)

And for the track cars, the word seems to be that fuels systems need to be drained, are there easy methods to do this that are safe whilst handling fuel.

Earlier post were speculative in some ways and It would be great to hear from people 6 months on.

Will any forum sponsors offer packages to upgrade as a drive in/out converted?

[NitroDann]

Hi everyone,
There are 4 or 5 race cars running E85 here at Wanneroo Barbagallo Raceway.
Each of them have made the conversion for the performance gains (105 octane) not for fuel economy.
E85 is 105 octane and ethanol is 115 octane so there is a distinction and we must be clear on what we are referring to.

As most of the afore-mentioned race cars were already running bigger injectors, there were no other modifications needed apart from a tank of E85 and a dynotune. Ashley Barnett's S14 runs E85 with factory rubber hoses everywhere and normal high pressure fuel lines or hard (metal) lines.

To the OP (Mark) - Any NA/NB/NC MX5 will be able to take E85 with bigger injectors and a retune (programmable ECU is a must) to get the most gains.

But just wait till I am done with the new build and I'll post the results up here (Ultimate 98 vs E85).

Les @ MX5 Shop

What les said, Im running E85 in a stock 1990 fuel system with bigger injectors.

Let me explain some myths,
e10 nets worse fuel economy in your family car for 2 reasons, it has more oxygen in the fuel than petrol, meaning your car sucks in the oxygen in the air AND in the fuel, requiring more fuel to burn with it (stoichiometric ratio is 9.7:1 not 14.7 on e85, whereas with e10 its closer to 14:1 rather than 14.7). And you family car was never designed to run on e10, its computer has no idea that e10 exists, so of course you wont see much benifit.

If you have run e10 for a while in your car, why not e85? call your local efi parts supplier, like AFI or EFI spares and ask them if its safe to run e85 in your model.

With a stand alone and a wideband and bigger injectors anyone can convert to e85 and why wouldnt you.

The maths,
BP ultimate 98 octane, $1.55 a litre
Bioflex e85, 105 octane, $1.05 a litre
you use 30% more and guess what 98 octane costs at least 30% more so KM per litre is reduced but KM per dollar (the important one) is increased or at worst hasnt changed, and you get 10-15% more power naturally aspirated or much more when boosted.

Why wouldnt you?
Dann

[Caffeine]

Why wouldnt you?
Dann

Because you have to stop every 10 minutes to fill up! ;)