Tein Monoflex vs. Bilstein PSS9s

[Dave]

Hi All,

Not wanting to open a C.O.W. on this - I know people love their Super Streets/ BCs/ etc. and that they are good value et all, however I need to do something on the SP and like the idea of choosing the best that is out there for a reasonable cost (i.e. definitely like the concept of the monotube construction). If Ohlins or the like are available in the same price bracket (somewhere around $3k...) I am interested to hear about them too...
I would really like to hear from anyone who has fitted Monoflex Teins (anyone??) as to ride quality/ control as a direct comparison to the venerable Bilstein PSS9's (do they make PSS10s for the MX5... and if so what is the advantage?).
Mr Rudd has generously decided to sponsor a set of one or the other of these for me...

Thanks,
Dave

[AJ]

PSS9's have long been the benchmark for "other" suspensions to live up to Dave............given the choice, it would be a no brainer for me, but that's just my opinion, I'm sure there'll be another 5,678,224.6 other opinions out there

[philz]

Aragosta

[Matty]

What is your purpose, what is your goal, what is your budget?

I would choose based on known performance rather than features. Probably a FCM setup in that price range...

[AB7]

Aragosta

You bought jolt's aragosa?

I know they have crazy amount of damper adjustment, but never rode in mx5 equiped with one. Bilstein pss9 impressed me most so far, so compliant on the road yet very well balanced during cornering. Flex on the other hand a just too hard everywhere.

[Hellmun]

If you come to the next clubday I can show you what monoflexes are like. I don't know if you'll find anyone who's had both to contrast though. I bought them with the intention of going to the track primarily though..so they're hard but not unbearable. I've dríven my car down the Winton on them.

[Dave]

PSS9's have long been the benchmark for "other" suspensions to live up to Dave............given the choice, it would be a no brainer for me, but that's just my opinion, I'm sure there'll be another 5,678,224.6 other opinions out there

Thanks AJ - Bigdog has them on his SP, and they definitely do a superior job to anything else I have felt, however I don't want to preclude anything that could be as good for the sake of it - and the Monoflex's were my immediate thought to compare, being a monotube construct...

What is your purpose, what is your goal, what is your budget?
I would choose based on known performance rather than features. Probably a FCM setup in that price range...

Purpose is to replace aged Koni/King setup with "something better" (I do appreciate the suppleness and finesse of the PSS9's over the things that get passed off as roads around here!). Usage is 95% commute/ daily drive, however once the car is "freshened up" I do intend to do an occasional track day (one or two a year). I don't have delusions or expectations of cutting new class records etc.! Budget is flexible at this stage, however I think that around $3k is plenty for the intended use.

I would choose based on known performance rather than features. Probably a FCM setup in that price range...

FCM... [whine]Please explain?[/whine]

Aragosta

Know of them in bike circles, not in cars... probably very good - is there a good agent out here, and assuming you have them - have you compared to the Bilies? Any idea of price range?

[ Bilstein pss9 impressed me most so far, so compliant on the road yet very well balanced during cornering. Flex on the other hand a just too hard everywhere.

I haven't tried Flex on an MX5 - though I have put a set of them in my son's S15. I loved the total ride-height adjustability, but not so much the actual ride/ spring rates. I was hoping the Monoflex would be more refined/ better than these...

If you come to the next clubday I can show you what monoflexes are like. I don't know if you'll find anyone who's had both to contrast though. I bought them with the intention of going to the track primarily though..so they're hard but not unbearable. I've dríven my car down the Winton on them.

Hi Hellmun, appreciate the offer - if timeframes work out I would like to take you up on it. It sounds from your comments however that they are not particularly compliant over the rough stuff - is that down to the spring rates and damping settings you have chosen for trackwork, or are they seriously hard at any setting?

Many thanks for the inputs gents - all are appreciated!

Rgds,
Dave

[Hellmun]

I have an EDFC so I actually put them soft when I leave a trackday, not full soft but just enough to iron out the bumps. At track settings they are pretty bad... I've had the monoflex on the car probaly 2 years..I can't really recall how they compare with the standard suspension anymore. My only passing memory was they weren't as bad as I was expecting... If you find yourself down Wollongong way your welcome to take the car for a trip and see what it's like. At the track it'll have semi-slicks which introduce a fair amount of non-compliance from bumps in the road

[RobH]

I have PSS9's on my car and am very happy with them. They are a lot more compliant than the old pedders spring / sandard shock combo that was on the car when I bought it.

One thing I have found is that I can't have the car as low as it used to be because the suspension is working so much better now that when you go over bumps or dips the front tyres can rub.

I believe the only difference between PSS9's and PSS10's is an extra click of adjustability on the shock which would not make a difference. I am pretty sure the MX5 only has the PSS9's available.

My PSS9's came from the States (approx $1750 delivered) when our dollar was up in the 90's so they were a bargain. Check out http://www.shox.com They delivered to my door within 7 working days.

[Matty]

FCM... [whine]Please explain?[/whine]

Fat Cat Motorsports
Shaikh runs a business rebuilding Bilsteins to custom damping specs, and doing customised coilover setups.

The website is pretty crude admittedly, but his work is very highly regarded in the US (search miata forum).

[Okibi]

... I haven't tried Flex on an MX5 - though I have put a set of them in my son's S15. I loved the total ride-height adjustability, but not so much the actual ride/ spring rates. I was hoping the Monoflex would be more refined/ better than these...

Sounds more like the spring rates than the shocks. S15's drivers tend to want harder rates so they can step the arse out.

From what i've noticed Japanese spring rates seems to be stiffer than what Aussie companies supply and American rates stiffer again.

I bought my flex's with the Japanese springs knowing that they'd probably be too stiff and i'd want to get softer springs to suit our crappy roads. I wanted to use the exact rates/height recommended by tein then work from there to suit me.

So far i've found the Japanese springs to be a little firm but liveable from day to day and great when pushing the limits.

I have an EDFC so I actually put them soft when I leave a trackday, not full soft but just enough to iron out the bumps....

Yup I do the same.

I have PSS9's on my car and am very happy with them. They are a lot more compliant than the old pedders spring / sandard shock combo that was on the car when I bought it. ..

I suggest any decent coil over package would be a step up

One thing I have found is that I can't have the car as low as it used to be because the suspension is working so much better now that when you go over bumps or dips the front tyres can rub...

You had to raise the right height? Sounds like the springs are too soft.

As I keep telling AJ, "bils" is german for "not as good as"

[Dave]

... I haven't tried Flex on an MX5 - though I have put a set of them in my son's S15. I loved the total ride-height adjustability, but not so much the actual ride/ spring rates. I was hoping the Monoflex would be more refined/ better than these...

Sounds more like the spring rates than the shocks. S15's drivers tend to want harder rates so they can step the arse out.

From what i've noticed Japanese spring rates seems to be stiffer than what Aussie companies supply and American rates stiffer again.

I bought my flex's with the Japanese springs knowing that they'd probably be too stiff and i'd want to get softer springs to suit our crappy roads. I wanted to use the exact rates/height recommended by tein then work from there to suit me.

So far i've found the Japanese springs to be a little firm but liveable from day to day and great when pushing the limits.

Thanks Dave, RobH, Matty and Hellmun - appreciate all your knowledge/ links and experience. This is a bit of a how long is a piece of string exercise... especially when juggling exchange rates and import duties etc.!
One possible solution I do like the sound of and am investigating are the P5s (Protech's) from the UK. Get very good write-ups and has a particularly good PR man answering my questions. Around $1200 AUD plus duties landed here in Oz. Not ultimately height adjustable as per Flex/ Monoflex, however I don't need or want it any lower than it currently is (about 330mm from wheel centre to guard arch).

Once again - thanks for your help.

[mx52nv]

Dave,
One other factor that you may want to consider is service and back up if your suspension requires re-valving or spare parts in the future. TEIN sell well in Australia not only because they have a decent line-up but also because they (Fulcrum) are able to fully service and repair any TEIN suspension. Same goes for Koni, Bilsteins, etc...

Just something else to weigh in when making your final decision. Also check on the UK MX-5 OC Forum to confirm how effective the Protech P5 is comparatively to other well known brands.

Good luck!

Les @ MX5 Shop

[16bit]

if you really feel like splashing out have a look at 949 racing XIDA coilovers. remote reservoir goodness.

http://www.949racing.com/index.asp?Page ... ProdID=186

or slightly cheaper

http://www.949racing.com/index.asp?Page ... ProdID=216

[Phil @ P5]

Thanks Dave, RobH, Matty and Hellmun - appreciate all your knowledge/ links and experience. This is a bit of a how long is a piece of string exercise... especially when juggling exchange rates and import duties etc.!
One possible solution I do like the sound of and am investigating are the P5s (Protech's) from the UK. Get very good write-ups and has a particularly good PR man answering my questions. Around $1200 AUD plus duties landed here in Oz. Not ultimately height adjustable as per Flex/ Monoflex, however I don't need or want it any lower than it currently is (about 330mm from wheel centre to guard arch).

Once again - thanks for your help.

Hi Dave

Thanks for the email, and I'll answer that directly. I just wanted to make clear that our dampers are not Protechs any more. In Nov 2007 we launched our PureDrive set-up based on the Protech unit (twin-tube) and I worked in conjunction with a good friend who's been in the suspension/chassis industry for 20 years (worked for Koni and MoD designing and engineering full active ride tanks!). Since that time Dave's come on board full-time and we decided to take the big step of designing and making our own dampers. It was clear that using other people's dampers was always going to be a compromise somewhere, so we've launched SportDrive based on a monotube design.

With regards to ride height, it's interesting to hear why arguments in favour of Tein's height adjustment. When you realise that the total rod travel is around ~75mm IIRC and then factor in a bump stop you have to have that sort of adjustment. In bump, you're always going to be limited by the tyre at the front and the upper wishbone/subframe at the rear. We settled for much more travel and a 'standard' coilover configuration.

mx52nv, you make a good point. As our dampers are completely rebuildable and re-valveable it would make sense to have a representative in Australia. We are working towards that.

16bit. Yes, the double adjustables are a nice tool. We often find that with simultaneous bump and rebound controls once you've got one set right, the other is wrong, hence why on our single adjustable unit we only have adjustment to the rebound. We do have a double adjustable damper, but like much of our design it's away from the 'norm'. Both bump and rebound adjustment is in a remote canister so it keeps the instalation clean, and if you wanted to change the valving just pop off the quick-connect oil line and send back the small canister only for valve changes. Simple.

If you wanted to follow a discussion on the older PureDrive to see how we got excellent results from someone elses damper, have a read on Pistonheads here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 0Gaz&mid=0 Dave (StressedDave) gets a bit more technical from page 6.

Cheers
Phil