First impressions on Valvolene full synthetic.

[wun911]

So what is the hypothesis? As motor oil breaks down it becomes thinner or thicker or maybe it doesnt change in viscosity at all?

We have a rheology lab I have time to kill.

[bruce]

I dont think visually or physically you can tell if oil is still useable or not. It would have to be chemically tested.
I wonder if you could invent something like a little ph test kit, but for oil?

[GP]

In my experience it's not the oil breaking down that's the problem but the contamination of the oil by fuel mainly. I fail to see how synthetic can go for longer between changes.

[rain902]

I dont think visually or physically you can tell if oil is still useable or not. It would have to be chemically tested.
I wonder if you could invent something like a little ph test kit, but for oil?

i see theres a lab advertising on bobs page that will do oil testing with a prepaid kit that includes jar, paperwork and postal satchel for US$22. Not a lot of help to us but it has to be indicative of the cost.

I googled oil test last night and found an aviation forum that suggests that someone else looking for test try air BP and air Shell.

i have their numbers, also the # of william adams (caterpillar agents) and will telephone to see if they do one off testing in anything resembling affordable.

Im inclined to agree - exactly how much longer would full synth last? The below was taken from W.adams www:
• Wear Rate monitors and tracks metal wear particles, contaminants and oil additive package elements.
• Oil Condition compares used oil to new oil to see if it is providing adequate lubrication and protection.
• Oil Cleanliness determines if abrasive contaminants are causing accelerated wear.
• Additional Tests detect water, glycol or fuel in oil.


that makes me think that oil no longer lubricates properly when its absorbed enough
soot/dust & or
coolant/fuel & or
bits of scraped piston/bore/big end bearing

Remember also that oil is responsible for 40% of the engines cooling - so i read somewhere - hence the air cooled aircraft engines/vw / porsche engines have such large sump volumes. Im just chucking ideas into the wind here - im not a chemist so im waaay out of my depth here...

[bruce]

Do you remember the old Mobil 1 ad where they run a car for a million kays (miles?) without a change, and they dismantle the motor to reveal no wear? I wonder if that was true?
Back to reality, I wonder if you could say double your mileage before you change with pure synthetics?

[Mr Morlock]

This topic always brings out the seat of pants judgements. In Terry's MX5 case if you were doing a problem solving exercise and had the time and money and resources the problem could also relate to something else other than the oil- ie some other mechanical issue- oil pump - temporary blockage etc. On my standard road car NBP2 I checked a few help lines and was advised that a full synthetic was not required so why spend more money?? Racing may be a horse of a different colour. As for the trucks Terry is involved in an exercise which has some science behind it and assuming these might be turbo diesels results might not have any relevance to small petrol engines. We make our choices for lots of reasons and of course are never influenced by advertising puff. PS my guess is that the MX5 oil change interval if followed represents a conservative and safe approach. Would anyone not do the changes as specified just because they run synthetics?

[rain902]

We have a rheology lab I have time to kill.

u do spectroscopy there wun?

[wun911]

Yeah UV/VIS specs HPLC.

[rain902]

Yeah UV/VIS specs HPLC.

what sort of sample volume do you need? also, does it have to be delivered in pyrex to prevent the sample pot from skewing the results?

[rain902]

ugh, sorry about the size of this post - it gives an insight into what is happening to the oil and what they are testing for - i thought about posting the link but thought that the best way to disseminate it to this interested bunch is to post it here and allowing others to skip over it.

As Terry mentioned, his oil rep is testing their oils as a value added thing - Im guessing that they can prove the cost benefits of their brand by doing so, also Im guessing that if they pay $50 for a sample test then thats a whole heap less than losing an engine, or a cargo due to engine failure.

What will oil analysis tell us? Let's use the example of a hydraulic system. Make the basic assumption that it consists of two essential components, moving parts and the lubricant. Anything else has to be considered foreign material. As the equipment begins to wear, small microscopic particles and products of heat and the oxidation process will be suspended in the oil. These particles can provide critical information as to what moving parts are wearing or whether there is contamination from external sources. Even though there are many different test methods and approaches to this problem, it is generally accepted that to be effective, an oil analysis program must carry out a number of physical and chemical measurements. Some of the most important tests include:

Viscosity: As oil is used, hydrocarbons break down with heat and the viscosity of the oil increases. Monitoring the viscosity of oil using a viscometer is a good indicator and can help determine whether the oil is in need of a change.

Water: In small amounts, this contaminant will not cause major damage. But in larger amounts, it may produce emulsions that can plug filters, contribute to the formation of metal-corroding acids, and accelerate oil oxidation. Moisture analysis can either be carried out by infrared spectroscopy or the Karl Fischer method.

Total Acid Number (TAN) and Total Base Number (TBN): These monitor organic acids and bases respectively that are produced from a combination of heat-generated oxidation products and the breakdown of additives in the used oil.

Wear Metals: Metallic particles in the oil, generated by wear, can reveal the condition of individual components within a machine. Trends in the relative concentrations of major, and minor elements in the oil can help to identify their likely source (Table 1).

Wear metals analysis is typically carried out by optical emission techniques. A typical wear metal analysis by emission spectroscopy (Fig 1), shows a trend in the lead and copper content over time of an oil sample used in a bronze bearing. It can be clearly seen that after approximately 6000–7000 hours of use, the lead and copper levels in the oil are beginning to increase, indicating a potential problem with the bearing.

Monitoring signature additive metals for a given product formulation can also indicate whether an additive package is being depleted or whether contamination by another oil has occurred. This is an important part of any used oil analysis, especially where multiple products of varying product compositions are used at a single location.

Ferrous Metal Content: A sensitive magnetometer is used to measure the mass of ferrous material in a sample of oil and displays it as a particle quantifier (PQ) index. In wear metal content tests for all metals, the PQ index is only an indicator of ferrous-based wear.

Particle Counting: This approach uses the principle of light scattering to measure the size of particulate matter suspended in the oil. Used oil passes a laser beam, where any particles will block light from reaching a detector. For used oil work, the particle counter is typically set up to read three different sizes, 4-, 6- and 14-micron particles, which can indicate the type and severity of the wear taking place.

High Throughput Testing

For a preventative oil analysis maintenance program to be successful, it is absolutely essential that the oil be analyzed on a regular basis. Analyzing oil when a piece of equipment is new provides a baseline. Then, over the lifetime of the equipment, the used oil is sampled and analyzed on a frequent basis. A change in these chemical and physical properties over time produces a trend analysis of the oil, which can indicate a number of potential problems including:

Thermal or oxidation breakdown of the oilMachine component wear Contamination from external sources

The key to avoiding major damage is to analyze oil samples with high frequency, fast turnaround times, and good accuracy. Unfortunately, high sample throughput can sometimes have a negative impact on the quality of results, unless the equipment being used is optimized for the task. For this type of demanding application work, which can generate a few hundred thousand tests per year, there has to be a close working relationship between the manufacturer and the user of the equipment. The instrument manufacturer understands the technology and how it works, whereas the user of the equipment supplies the application knowledge and the expertise to make critical decisions based on data generated. There are two main analytical techniques to carry out the majority of chemical tests used in a plant machinery based oil analysis program.

ICP-OES is a rapid multi-element technique for the analysis of aqueous and organic-based solutions. It uses a high temperature, argon plasma (ICP) to excite ground state atoms in a sample so they emit wavelength-specific photons of light, characteristic of a particular element. The photons are then focused by an optical system onto a detector where they are counted using sensitive measurement circuitry. The emission intensity (total number of photons), corresponding to the individual trace metals in the sample is then quantified by comparing it to known calibration or reference standards.

Infrared Spectroscopy relies on the principle that different molecular structures in a sample have different wavelength-specific absorption characteristics, known as an IR fingerprint. By comparing the intensity and shape of molecular bands produced by this absorption, the component relating to that molecular structure can be identified and quantified. For example, water can easily be identified in the presence of lubricating oils by looking for the H2

O molecular band.

Final Analysis

The benefits of oil analysis programs cannot be disputed. There are countless examples where it has saved companies large amounts of money by minimizing equipment downtime. And by extending this service to an Internet-based system, oil companies can get a comprehensive view of a customers' entire oil analysis program, zero-in on problem areas, and offer expert help when and where it is needed.

[rain902]

okaaay - im going to put this in the parts section and see if theres enough interest for a GB

[Mr Morlock]

the analysis and methods are beyond my knowledge level however what is the purpose of the oil analysis for most of us? I get it for the guy running a truck fleet or maybe a fleet of bulldozers but even for a guy racing a car and changing his oil regularly what is the payback or purpose?

[rain902]

the analysis and methods are beyond my knowledge level however what is the purpose of the oil analysis for most of us? I get it for the guy running a truck fleet or maybe a fleet of bulldozers but even for a guy racing a car and changing his oil regularly what is the payback or purpose?

Whilst the science is certainly beyond Mr Morlocks grasp I would have thought that calmly reading the above posts would have answered his question.

purpose of testing:

to detect impurities and contaminants such as:
coolant/fuel
suspended metals
loss of viscosity

which will give me an insight into whats going on in my engine - i have no idea if its leaking coolant into the block due to a slowly failing head gasket, or dropping ground up tin and lead into the oil due to worn big end bearings.

Spending $30 every few months is worth it to me to detect catastrophic failure via email, rather than spinning on my own oil and requiring a tow truck home from the track.

Payback:

preventing unnecessary costs and wasted time due to age and or neglect of the engine and its lubricant.

I hope that this payback aint a bitch

[rain902]

Racing may be a horse of a different colour.

how often does your car see the 7950rpm rev limiter Mr M?

Would anyone not do the changes as specified just because they run synthetics?

when i was rummaging around looking for tribology i stumbled across a forum in US of A where they were comparing grades of oil and were specifically switching to synth so they could go 75 000 MILES in their Trucks (4wd utes/suv) without an oilchange.

Yanks *shrugs*

They even talked about german diesel mercedes taxis doing one million miles (kms?) on an oilchange, with nothing but top ups and ultra fine aftermarket filters being fitted and regularly changed. I have no idea if any of this is fact.

[tbro]

the analysis and methods are beyond my knowledge level however what is the purpose of the oil analysis for most of us? I get it for the guy running a truck fleet or maybe a fleet of bulldozers but even for a guy racing a car and changing his oil regularly what is the payback or purpose?

Mr M,
The main reason is the big I word, insurance, pure and simple.
Doesn't matter if its my fleet or my Clubby or Scooter, spending $30 to find out if anything nasty is starting to go wrong inside my engine g/box or diff is bloody good value.

Now I'm a tight-arse and bloody lazy when it comes to any vehicle. If I can spend less money by knowing that the bigend bearings are starting to flake, and if I do it NOW, then hey!!! less money spent, less work as I can just replace the bearings and not have to strip the block and machine the crank.

I've seen quite a few Toyota Losers turbo diesels cost the owners a fortune ($18000) because the owners couldn't or wouldn't change their engine oil every 5000ks. All Jap high speed diesels must have their oil and filters changed at 5000k, if owners had their oil tested, they would see how the oil sludges up causing engine and turbo damage.

The engine oils of today are light years ahead of the oils of even 5 years ago. What most people don't realise is that oil are now blended to suit specific engines.For diesel engines, Euro oils are very high in additives, most US engine oils are high in detergents and low in sulphates,and Jap diesel oils are very low speced compared to euros, eg; cd,cf.
Use the incorrect oils in the wrong engine and long term can work out very expensive, using Euro spec oils in Jap motors will glaze up the engine in approx 20000k, ask me how I know that one!!!!!

Someone asked why the oil gets dirty, thats the oil keeping contaminates suspended so that the oil filter can do its job and when the drop the sump plug the crap comes out with the oil, not sludging up your motor, so dirty oil after a certain period is no bad thing.

Some people here will service their cars by the book at the dealers, some will go to their favorite workshop, and some just use what ever oil is on special and same with the filters. If you were buying any of their cars how would you know really what condition the engine , gearbox and diff is REALLY like? simple, get the oils tested.Like I said , Insurance.

Just my 2c worth!!

Terry