Are we hub centric?

[Matty]

Hub rings are (only) useful for getting a wheel roughly centred while you tighten up the nuts. However, once the nuts start to seat on the taper, they are what is holding the wheel in position, NOT the hub ring. If you are incompetent and overtighten one nut before the others, you MAY find the wheel ends up out of position. But if you follow any wheel fitting instructions, you will have done the nuts up gradually and progressively.

Think about it, there has to be a fitment tolerance between the hub ring and the wheel. If the wheel was sitting on this lip, it would be rattling around with every rotation of the wheel.

[Hammer]

Hub rings are (only) useful for getting a wheel roughly centred while you tighten up the nuts. However, once the nuts start to seat on the taper, they are what is holding the wheel in position, NOT the hub ring. If you are incompetent and overtighten one nut before the others, you MAY find the wheel ends up out of position. But if you follow any wheel fitting instructions, you will have done the nuts up gradually and progressively.

Think about it, there has to be a fitment tolerance between the hub ring and the wheel. If the wheel was sitting on this lip, it would be rattling around with every rotation of the wheel.

I was informed by so called "experts" in the wheel/tyre industry, that there is a great misconception that the lug nuts are what carry the weight of the car. Apparently this is incorrect. The hub is what carries the weigh at each corner.

The lug nuts are there purely to firmly affix the wheel on the car. So with this in mind, it would be dangerous to have the lug nuts bearing the weight of the car.

You might get away with it on normal road use, but on the track where heat, forces etc are increased 10 fold, this could be catastrophic as per the Toyota Soarer shown earlier in this thread.

[meanmx]

Hub rings are (only) useful for getting a wheel roughly centred while you tighten up the nuts. However, once the nuts start to seat on the taper, they are what is holding the wheel in position, NOT the hub ring. If you are incompetent and overtighten one nut before the others, you MAY find the wheel ends up out of position. But if you follow any wheel fitting instructions, you will have done the nuts up gradually and progressively.

Think about it, there has to be a fitment tolerance between the hub ring and the wheel. If the wheel was sitting on this lip, it would be rattling around with every rotation of the wheel.

I agree with this completely except that we don't always control what a mechanic does. I was having vibration issues at highway speeds and a set of these fixed it. They probably just keep the wheel in spot while it is done up but it made the difference for a very little lay out. Very happy I got them put on

Ben

[Matty]

Hub rings are (only) useful for getting a wheel roughly centred while you tighten up the nuts. However, once the nuts start to seat on the taper, they are what is holding the wheel in position, NOT the hub ring. If you are incompetent and overtighten one nut before the others, you MAY find the wheel ends up out of position. But if you follow any wheel fitting instructions, you will have done the nuts up gradually and progressively.

Think about it, there has to be a fitment tolerance between the hub ring and the wheel. If the wheel was sitting on this lip, it would be rattling around with every rotation of the wheel.

I was informed by so called "experts" in the wheel/tyre industry, that there is a great misconception that the lug nuts are what carry the weight of the car. Apparently this is incorrect. The hub is what carries the weigh at each corner.

The lug nuts are there purely to firmly affix the wheel on the car. So with this in mind, it would be dangerous to have the lug nuts bearing the weight of the car.

You might get away with it on normal road use, but on the track where heat, forces etc are increased 10 fold, this could be catastrophic as per the Toyota Soarer shown earlier in this thread.

I assume these 'experts' are qualified to operate a rattle gun?

tapered seat nuts and wheels will by definition and design self-centre the hole to the stud. The MX-5 uses them as OEM. So the MX is lug-centric. As are 99% of cars I'm aware of. THe Soarer shown clearly uses a different OEM design.

I you were to calculate the forces involved, I'd be very surprised if the friction forces on the face of the wheel-brake interface aren't bearing all of the load.

As for what works on track, well 949 Racing for example are advocating that hub rings are unnecessary. Haven't heard any failures of their wheels.

[greenMachine]

If these things are really necessary, anyone selling an aftermarket wheel (and of course car manufacturers) that is not a snug fit on the hub ring, would be liable for selling a product that is not 'fit for purpose'. It would be necessary to sell with the wheel the appropriate thingo to make it fit properly.

That is my last word on this subject.

[AB7]

Matty i can see your point but AFAIK 949 racing wheels are for Mazda only hub, they don't require hub rings. They fit snugly into mx5 centre hub.

[manga_blue]

I was informed by so called "experts" in the wheel/tyre industry, that there is a great misconception that the lug nuts are what carry the weight of the car. Apparently this is incorrect. The hub is what carries the weigh at each corner.

The lug nuts are there purely to firmly affix the wheel on the car. So with this in mind, it would be dangerous to have the lug nuts bearing the weight of the car.

You might get away with it on normal road use, but on the track where heat, forces etc are increased 10 fold, this could be catastrophic as per the Toyota Soarer shown earlier in this thread.

Sometimes I shake my head in misbelief in some of the absolute garbage spouted in this forum.

Lug nuts fix your wheels to the hub. Hub centering only helps reduce the risk of damage to your wheels caused by neanderthals with rattle guns by increasing the chance of having the wheel in place before they hit it with the gun. After tightening then hub centering plays no structural role.

[Hammer]

Yeah I know what you mean. That's why I put parenthesis on the word expert.

It always depends on who you speak to. So for me I decided to be safe than sorry and fitted them.

But one thing though Manga_blue, don't shoot the messenger. It's not nice.

[Matty]

Matty i can see your point but AFAIK 949 racing wheels are for Mazda only hub, they don't require hub rings. They fit snugly into mx5 centre hub.

No, whilst designed originally for the MX-5, they use a 59.1? mm hub so that they are a universal fit on Nissans, Hondas and others.

[wun911]

Thanks for the advice/info guys.
I'm going to run without them for a bit and see how it goes.

[manga_blue]

Yeah I know what you mean. That's why I put parenthesis on the word expert.

It always depends on who you speak to. So for me I decided to be safe than sorry and fitted them.

But one thing though Manga_blue, don't shoot the messenger. It's not nice.

Fair enough, Hammer. I didn't get the parentheses bit at first.

[Wivvix]

This depends entirely on the wheels in question, or so I was informed.

Stock wheels are lug-centric. They mate up appropriately with the centre-bore or spigot, as they were designed with a 54mm bore in mind. The stock wheel/lug nuts are chiefly responsible for centering the wheel on the hub, as well as affixing the wheel to the hub.

Numerous aftermarket alloys are "hub-centric", that is to say it is suggested that you fit a centre-bore locator ring so that the surface area on the inside face of the wheel mates up with the hub face. The centering action of the locator ring is not precise however, the gross amount of centering is still very much so dependent on lug-nuts being tightened correctly. The centre-bore locator ring just aids in keeping the wheel balanced and centred while fixing to the hub. That said, if you have a moron putting your wheels on, even a centre-bore locator ring won't help you.

If you take care when fixing the aftermarket alloys to a vehicle using tapered lug nuts, you shouldn't have any problems with the wheel whatsoever. I drove without and then with centre-bore locator rings on my rpf1's, and the locator rings didn't make one iota of difference, because Bob at wheels world was careful to tighten the lug nuts correctly.

Personally I say get them. The industry professes they are useful and I can't see any harm in using them, unless you're dense and forget to take them off when you swap to stock alloys. Other than that, it's peace of mind for $20 (should cost $5 each) that Enkei won't turn around and say "you didn't use centre-bore locator rings as you are supposed to....", should something go wrong.

Just my 2c.

[greenMachine]

I know, I did say I wouldn't say anything more , but ...

... it's peace of mind for $20 (should cost $5 each) that Enkei won't turn around and say "you didn't use centre-bore locator rings as you are supposed to....", should something go wrong.

...

Where do Enkei say we are supposed to use these?? A source would be really helpful in getting some rigour into this discussion.

[hks_kansei]

Where do Enkei say we are supposed to use these?? A source would be really helpful in getting some rigour into this discussion.

I think it's more for the point of covering your arse.

they may not specifically say "use hub rings" however I would be pretty certain that in the warranty terms it would have a clause that would say something like "must be correctly installed"

this way, the company can simply come back and say "AHA! you didnt use hub rings, which means not correcly installed, which means the warranty is void, now pay for a new set of wheels!"



again, as Wivvix said, for $20 it's good peace of mind,

[Okibi]

Having the hub ring also gives you a little extra peace of mind, if for what ever reason your wheel nuts start to become loose your wheel will move to the point at which the hub ring locks in. I'd much rather the wheel move a fraction, create a vibration and give me a chance to pull over rather than move ever further create a larger vibration perhaps causing me to loose control and hammer the crap out of the wheel studs.