SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Engines, Transmissions & Final Drive questions and answers

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Techno
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Techno » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:00 pm

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This image comes from [url]http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1409/article.html[url]

This is how the car came from Prodrive.

I have looked in the 2002 write-ups in Wheels, Motor, Fast Fours etc and they all show the positioning as in the picture. The Blue car and the silver one are in the writeups.

Funny thing though .... i run mine in reverse so that the outlet below the valve is plumbed back into the intake before the turbo.

It would be nice to know who has it which way. I can find no references on the Bosch site to a BOV or fitting instructions.

What a COW.

ROB
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby bigdog » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:26 pm

Here's how mine looks Rob. Extended hose is there to clear the SE top hose (which in turn clears the IC pipe better than original SP hose).

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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Garry » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:24 pm

Actually it's incorrect Blackster. Nearly all the SP's had the valve fitted the other way round from Prodrive and Audi and VW fit them the other way around as well as per the instructions that Hammer had with his new valve.

Not that it makes any difference that I can tell. When I first got my car it was installed in the opposite direction to the pic so I turned it around so it was the same as in the pic, made no difference so I eventually turned it back around to how it was originally.
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby blackster » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:38 am

Garry wrote:Actually it's incorrect Blackster. Nearly all the SP's had the valve fitted the other way round from Prodrive and Audi and VW fit them the other way around as well as per the instructions that Hammer had with his new valve.


It doesnt make sense to put it the other way, the diaphram is no longer directional to blow off and vacuum.

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Last edited by blackster on Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Techno
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Techno » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:27 am

Garry wrote:Actually it's incorrect Blackster. Nearly all the SP's had the valve fitted the other way round from Prodrive and Audi and VW fit them the other way around as well as per the instructions that Hammer had with his new valve.

Not that it makes any difference that I can tell. When I first got my car it was installed in the opposite direction to the pic so I turned it around so it was the same as in the pic, made no difference so I eventually turned it back around to how it was originally.



Memories, memories .....

We have been over this topic years ago http://mx5cartalk.com/phpBB-3.0.2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=19989&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=bov&start=15

I have mine fitted so that the top of the BOV faces the driver's side (not as shown in the pics above, but rather as in the drawing) and I have no problems with the 5,000 lift off bucking, it has a wooooooosh sound and not the flutter when driving but has a flutter when just revving the stationary engine.

I had mine changed under warranty (twice I think) and for the last 40,000kms with it fitted like it is I have no problems (using Mobil 8000).

Hers is some further reading
http://www.s4biturbo.com/art-dvtests.php, and pulled apart http://www.s4biturbo.com/art-dvtests2.php

BTW ... HNY

Regards
Rob
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby SPy vs. SPy » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:11 pm

According to Mr Riddel & co, the valve will work either way around under standard boost, if the boost is upped it should be fitted per BigDogs photo.

Some of the dealerships turned the valve around to address the off throttle jitters, on some cars it works, on others it makes naff all difference.
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Techno » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:09 pm

Hi guys.

I've been thinking ... (and thinking again ... reason for the edit)

It seems to me that the valve is designed to be closed all the time except when the pressure in the intake plenum is lower than that on the other side of the butterfly. When I'm on boost and the butterfly closes there is less pressure inside the intake plenum than on the other side of the butterfly. The low pressure from inside the intake plenum acts on the BOV diaphragm and it opens. The pressurised air in the piping can then escape via the bypass and back down to the intake just after the air filter.

My car runs 20 inches of vacuum at idle but as the pressure is the same on either side of the butterfly the BOV remains closed.

Now picture this ..... I am at around 5,000 rpm under light throttle ... my vacuum gauge shows between 0 and 5 inches of vacuum. Therefore, at this stage my valve is closed, because the spring rate keeps it closed when the pressure on either side of the butterfly is the same. If I lift off there will be a pressure drop (increase in vacuum) inside the plenum but because the butterfly is not closed that pressure should be the same on both sides of the butterfly.

We know that it needs 3 inches of vacuum to commence opening the BOV and it is fully open at 8 inches. (Note 5 inches of vacuum is not much) But what would happen if by lifting off the throttle there was a slight pressure change of between 3 and 8 inches created, wouldn't that mean that the diaphragm would be mid-way between open and closed ... being drawn up by the vacuum and pushed back down by the spring ....and cause a flutter.

In the picture below the valve is closed, as you can see. The high pressure entering the side of the body is behind the valve seat and acts with the spring to keep the valve closed. If the pressure side was from the bottom then it would act to push the valve seat up and crack it open.

I'm with the side feed and bottom exhaust crew.

AND so is the author of http://www.s4biturbo.com/art-dvtests.php. Mike, who runs http://www.vastperformance.com/ has emailed me to say

>On every 1.8T, 2.7T, 4.2V8 Turbo, 2.0TFSI turbo w/mechanical conversion,
> I've ALWAYS mounted the boost inlet on the SIDE of the valve, just as
> you were describing in your email. This is the orientation that VW and
> Audi uses from the factory and it's always worked great for us. The
> other reason I don't put the boost inlet to the bottom of the piston, is
> because if there happens to be a lower pressure on the vacuum actuation
> side/nipple, I don't want the valve cracking open with the boost pressure.
>
> On the contrary, if you do orient the valve in the opposite fashion of
> VW/Audi, you must make sure that the actuation signal/nipple sees the
> same exact pressure as the inlet so it's less likely that it will crack
> open and bleed off boost.
>
> I hope this helps....if I were you, just use the VW/Audi convention that
> I'm used to and you should be ok.



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Last edited by Techno on Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby NMX516 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:57 pm

My understanding is that a BOV should ONLY be open on a car with a air flow meter, when changing gears or on the overrun from high revs. The vacuum will be greater in those instances than when at idle because the engine is trying to suck more air in through the intake system due to the higher revs with a closed throttle. If that's the scenario for these cars "bucking and lurching" then it sounds to me like an adjustable BOV is the way to go, as it should have the potential to tighten right up to the point where it is still pretty much fully closed at idle... Anyone with a vacuum/boost gauge fitted to their car should be able to confirm that there is more vacuum in those scenarios than when at idle.

Has anyone completely removed their BOV and blocked the hoses to and from it yet? I'm guessing that doing so will solve all the high rev, small throttle opening problems as I suspect that Mazda/Pro Drive/ChipTorque would have tuned them well enough to drive perfectly at light load. As long as you avoid high boost, high revs, sudden throttle lift off when doing so, nothing will be damaged
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Techno » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:02 pm

Hi NMX516
At idle the car is pulling 20 inches of vacuum.

When braking with the engine, clutch out and drive train engaged, it will go to 24 inches.

Between gear changes the clutch is depressed and the vacuum goes to around 20 inches but you can hear it vent as soon as you lift off from boost.

The issue is, and even with an adjustable CBV or BOV, that at it takes some vacuum to commence opening and more vacumm to fully open. Usually the opening is pretty quick, but at light throttle there has to be some stage when it is neither fully open or closed. I think that that is when the problems begin.

Regards
Rob
Last edited by Techno on Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby NMX516 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:10 am

Hmm, you could well be right Rob. Where I'm coming from, is that in my other car (not MX5) I can watch the boost gauge go from full boost down to say 15 inches of vacuum just by slowly easing my foot off the accelerator - none of that sets off the BOV, hence why I'm thinking that an SP shouldn't have problems in a similar scenario if the BOV is working /setup correctly. I have my BOV set to very close to full hard. Perhaps though it is more the sudden change of boost/vacuum which opens the BOV, rather than the actual vacuum amount itself... Note though, that as per the instructions for 'tuning' the Turbosmart BOV, that the idea is to stiffen the setting until the car idles well, meaning that the BOV is more likely to be closed when idling. A softer spring tension will be more likely to see the BOV opened at idle, which seems to go against the Turbosmart thinking. Also perhaps supported by some of the guys here saying that the 'Porsche' model BOV is better than the factory SP one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Porsche model BOV has a higher spring tension than the SP one.

The BOV is intended to vent air back to the turbo when changing gears at high boost levels. Slamming the throttle body shut at high revs with full boost 'should' draw more vacuum than at idle. For all other times, there is really no need to have a BOV at all. The idea is two fold - the BOV supposedly reduces boost drop off between gear changes, meaning quick boost response when changing up into the next gear, and also to help prevent the turbo coming to an almost dead stop so quickly when going from full boost to nothing. This apparently can cause damage to some turbo's however I'm not sure that it is much of an issue on low boost systems such as these.

I just don't see that this problem with most(?) SP's couldn't be fairly easily solved, as the ECU tuning surely wouldn't be so "she'll be right mate" as to allow this problem that everyone seems to be talking about. But maybe it is? :(

I'll be interested to hear if anyone does remove their BOV, blocks the hoses, and still has these problems - or if it eliminates the problem.

The other possibility that had crossed my mind, was that some of the air vented back to the turbo through the BOV, might also track back through the afm, which could cause problems. Not sure how likely that would be, and I'm not familiar with where the BOV return line plumbs back in and how, but perhaps that could happen??...

Anyway, I'm just theorising here... I'm not saying I have the answer to this SP problem, but I think it's worth trying a few different things before perhaps rushing out and spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on aftermarket ECU's or dyno time for example. :)

Cheers :)

Edit: Interesting article here which includes some info on how a BOV should work. - http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2188/article.html
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Fatty » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:56 am

i love the way you're thinking "outside the box" with this removing / blocking the bov . seems like a worthwhile experiment for someone to undertake. i'm with you on this one, i reckon it could be a cheap and easy cure.

fyi my car has similar power to a stock SP , it's not fitted with a BOV and at those power / boost levels i really don't see the need for it. it does not exhibit any of the "pig rooting" behaviour that SP owners complain about.

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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Sean » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:54 am

bigdog wrote:this could be a good time for a group buy on Turbosmart Kompact BOVs. I want one, Hammer wants one, Al 'needs' one.... who else needs a new BOV?? I could be wrong, but I suspect Steve Gosbee might be an agent for Turbosmart? They list a 'Steve' at Blaxland as a dealer - once I know how many are required I'll give em a ring and see what we can do pricewise. I have seen them from $259 to $299 plus freight on the web. Let me know asap guys and I'll chase some down. :D


Pretty sure Steve is an agent and pretty sure he'd be keen to look after fellow MX5 drivers.

The Steve on the website is a different guy, it's Steve from Oztrack Tuning, also a good guy who deals heavily with tuning of LSx V8s (with amazing results currently holds a few Commodore LSx records).

We're having dinner with Steve Gosbee and his Mrs tonight and I'll check it out and post back.
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Techno » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:16 am

Hi NMX516
Thanks for the refernce to Autospeed.

The article says "At idle, the blow-off valve in most factory systems stays open - the minus 0.5 Bar or so that's present is enough to trigger it. " and "Adjustable valves can have their spring pre-load altered so that they’re not open at idle – they open only when the vacuum is even greater during a throttle lift-off. However, this reduces their opening time – ie they’re slower to open on the throttle lift."

I suspect that this is why the turbosmart gives the instructions to wind down until the valve just stays close at idle. A higher spring rate than required will only impede its action and create the reverse pressure back to the turbo ... maybe this causes the buck.

I have disconnected the BOV and I can tell you that all is oK at first but the thing idles like a pig following the first application of boost. The blowback down to the turbo seems to upset it greatly.

Hi Fatty
Without a BOV or CDV doesn't the backpressure slow down the turbo's spin rate dramatically between shifts?

Have you tried it with, and without, a BOV?

What ever the issues are with the SP's it would seem that when it was being developed the fact that the BOV was around the wrong way would have not helped in the diagnosis and cure.

Interesting topic ,,,

Regards

Rob
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby NMX516 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:32 pm

Techno wrote:I have disconnected the BOV and I can tell you that all is oK at first but the thing idles like a pig following the first application of boost.


Well now we're getting somewhere! :) How does it idle if you were to drive off boost all day long? Does it idle poorly only when warm or only when cold, or both? Does it still "pig root" when driving in the scenarios as before? Can you feather the throttle without any problems?

If it's not idling well with the BOV removed and those connections blocked off, then there is another problem. There are a number of things which can cause poor idle though. It might be as simple as an idle speed adjustment. I don't want to send any SP owners on a wild goose chase, but I would be checking all the hoses for leaks, check the afm wiring, idle speed, cleaning out the PCV valve and perhaps throttle body too. The old 'idle dip' problem could be the cause.... The deceleration dampener could be the cause... There are a lot of possibilities. I'd be getting hold of a good workshop manual and start going through some of the trouble shooting sections to try and sort things out. Hopefully the SP's weren't tuned around a dodgy BOV...
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SP ENGINE MISS AT 4-4,500 RPM

Postby Sean » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:20 am

Sean wrote:
bigdog wrote:this could be a good time for a group buy on Turbosmart Kompact BOVs. I want one, Hammer wants one, Al 'needs' one.... who else needs a new BOV?? I could be wrong, but I suspect Steve Gosbee might be an agent for Turbosmart? They list a 'Steve' at Blaxland as a dealer - once I know how many are required I'll give em a ring and see what we can do pricewise. I have seen them from $259 to $299 plus freight on the web. Let me know asap guys and I'll chase some down. :D


Pretty sure Steve is an agent and pretty sure he'd be keen to look after fellow MX5 drivers.

The Steve on the website is a different guy, it's Steve from Oztrack Tuning, also a good guy who deals heavily with tuning of LSx V8s (with amazing results currently holds a few Commodore LSx records).

We're having dinner with Steve Gosbee and his Mrs tonight and I'll check it out and post back.


Hi Guys, spoke to Steve Gosbee on the weekend and he is happy to help out fellow mx5ers with a very special deal for a group buy, if you guys want to go ahead, I'll pass his number on to whoever will/wants to organise it.
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