EBC greenstuff pads

[stevesports]

Wheels lock due to the wheels stop turning. The point you get the wheels to stop turning will be the same whatever the pad.

of course, but if you have better pads that give better bite, therefore stronger braking force, doesn't that mean less effort is required for the same stopping force compared to rubbish pads?

[bruce]

Just out of interest, the NB8A does not have ABS braking. So do we want brakes that will lock up the wheels into a skid or do we compensate lack of ABS by having slightly weaker pads to keep the wheels rotating which theoretically should stop better and with more control than wheels that are skidding?

ABS will lock the wheels momentarily and then release them repeatedly.
The purpose of ABS is to reduce braking distances.
Using poor pads will increase braking distances.
You want good pads to get to the point just before locking up=shortest stopping distance.
Thus poor pads are not a poor-mans ABS system. You will just sail straight through that intersection to your death.

[matt9111]

You will just sail straight through that intersection to your death.

[/quote]


Hahaha, I found that a very amusing comment!

[Quicksilver]

Just out of interest, the NB8A does not have ABS braking. So do we want brakes that will lock up the wheels into a skid or do we compensate lack of ABS by having slightly weaker pads to keep the wheels rotating which theoretically should stop better and with more control than wheels that are skidding?

ABS will lock the wheels momentarily and then release them repeatedly.
The purpose of ABS is to reduce braking distances.
Using poor pads will increase braking distances.
You want good pads to get to the point just before locking up=shortest stopping distance.
Thus poor pads are not a poor-mans ABS system. You will just sail straight through that intersection to your death.

Thanks for that Bruce and I expect you are right. My concern was visualising how easy it would be to aquaplane a lightweight MX-5 on wide tyres without ABS. In a previous job, I experienced first hand controlled tests of ABS and non-ABS cars on wet tracks and know its better not to lock up the wheels in the wet if possible.

All academic for me at the moment as I dont need to replace my brake pads, but just getting it straight for when I do.

[stevesports]

Just out of interest, the NB8A does not have ABS braking. So do we want brakes that will lock up the wheels into a skid or do we compensate lack of ABS by having slightly weaker pads to keep the wheels rotating which theoretically should stop better and with more control than wheels that are skidding?

ABS will lock the wheels momentarily and then release them repeatedly.
The purpose of ABS is to reduce braking distances.
Using poor pads will increase braking distances.
You want good pads to get to the point just before locking up=shortest stopping distance.
Thus poor pads are not a poor-mans ABS system. You will just sail straight through that intersection to your death.

i have always thought the purpose of ABS is to prevent your wheels from locking up, therefore in an emergency situation where you just mash teh brake pedal, you can still steer the car.

Of course, subsequent to this is that compared to braking via locked wheels, braking distances will drop.

[Quicksilver]

Just out of interest, the NB8A does not have ABS braking. So do we want brakes that will lock up the wheels into a skid or do we compensate lack of ABS by having slightly weaker pads to keep the wheels rotating which theoretically should stop better and with more control than wheels that are skidding?

ABS will lock the wheels momentarily and then release them repeatedly.
The purpose of ABS is to reduce braking distances.
Using poor pads will increase braking distances.
You want good pads to get to the point just before locking up=shortest stopping distance.
Thus poor pads are not a poor-mans ABS system. You will just sail straight through that intersection to your death.

i have always thought the purpose of ABS is to prevent your wheels from locking up, therefore in an emergency situation where you just mash teh brake pedal, you can still steer the car.

Of course, subsequent to this is that compared to braking via locked wheels, braking distances will drop.

From demonstrated tests, ABS on a wet surface will both stop you in a shorter distance AND give you steering control. It does this by very rapidly applying and releasing your brakes thereby allowing the tread on your tyre to do their job of diplacing water. If the wheel stops rotating, the tread is far less effective and the wheel will aquaplane and the car literally floats on top of the water - no braking power whatsoever.

Hence my original suggestion that without ABS on the NA and NB8A models, high performance brake pads would grab the disc resulting in the wheel not rotating and THEN, Bruce, you will sail straight through the intersection, yadda, yadda, .....!

Obviously, I am not advocating 'weak' or 'soft' pads, just not upgrading from the originals for cars without ABS.

If I'm wrong, just tell me why and we will all know.

[Alex]

I think if you lock up your wheels on new brakes then it's got more to do with your driving style. (or you need new tyres)
If you normally lock up under emergency situations then I think you need to work on your braking methods rather then going to crappy pads. With bad pads it will take you longer to reach the braking limit, meaning longer stopping distance, even worse it they happen to be hot, for example if there is an animal on the road through some nice twisties.
The issue with better brake pads has less to do with stopping force and more to do with how well they work at a range of temperatures. Most people here are looking for pads that are acceptable when cold but won't fade when hot, unlike some which might have a bit better performance when cold but once hot will turn to mush.

[Sasso]

Wrong. Pads do not affect the wheels locking. There is no logic in what you say.

Er but it would. The point where it locks may be the same, but the ease of reaching it and not breaching it depends on the pads, amongst other things. What he is saying has some logic, and I've experienced it, if you get pads with lots of bite then its very hard to modulate the braking, so it would do nothing, nothing then suddenly lock, and since locked brakes don't stop the car as well, having pads with less bite would make it much easier to stop the quickest consistently. But this is an extreme example, usually if you are getting better pads, you are an enthusiast, and would have better tyres to match.


Abs shouldn't decrease stopping distances if the non abs car is on the braking grip limit as well. Like quicksliver said the abs is to prevent the wheels locking in emergencies, where you freak out, allowing the car to be steered slightly, and yes decrease stopping distance if the wheels would have otherwise locked. On the track, with all other things being equal there would proably be no appreciable difference in braking distances between abs and non unless you were to start going more advanced with different and variable braking bias around the car.

[Sasso]

I think if you lock up your wheels on new brakes then it's got more to do with your driving style. (or you need new tyres)
If you normally lock up under emergency situations then I think you need to work on your braking methods rather then going to crappy pads. With bad pads it will take you longer to reach the braking limit, meaning longer stopping distance, even worse it they happen to be hot, for example if there is an animal on the road through some nice twisties.
The issue with better brake pads has less to do with stopping force and more to do with how well they work at a range of temperatures. Most people here are looking for pads that are acceptable when cold but won't fade when hot, unlike some which might have a bit better performance when cold but once hot will turn to mush.

Braking methods do jack all when there's a kangaroo standing in the middle of the road as you come around a blind corner at 100km/h, you will lock a brake even with semis. However I agree to not use weaker pads because of that, the bite and response from better pads can be enough to stop you from hitting something, so long as its not overwhelming. ABS may have helped a little bit, better brake bias would have helped more, something else abs probably helps with.

[stevesports]

Wrong. Pads do not affect the wheels locking. There is no logic in what you say.

Er but it would. The point where it locks may be the same, but the ease of reaching it and not breaching it depends on the pads, amongst other things. What he is saying has some logic, and I've experienced it, if you get pads with lots of bite then its very hard to modulate the braking, so it would do nothing, nothing then suddenly lock, and since locked brakes don't stop the car as well, having pads with less bite would make it much easier to stop the quickest consistently. But this is an extreme example, usually if you are getting better pads, you are an enthusiast, and would have better tyres to match.


Abs shouldn't decrease stopping distances if the non abs car is on the braking grip limit as well. Like quicksliver said the abs is to prevent the wheels locking in emergencies, where you freak out, allowing the car to be steered slightly, and yes decrease stopping distance if the wheels would have otherwise locked. On the track, with all other things being equal there would proably be no appreciable difference in braking distances between abs and non unless you were to start going more advanced with different and variable braking bias around the car.

um...i think i said that but yeah, i agree. That is my understanding.

[Sasso]

um...i think i said that but yeah, i agree. That is my understanding.

lol I know I was trying to back you up.