gday fellow mx5 obsessives..
this is my first post so please be gentle...
i bought the mx5 because ive always been a car nut that never had a car worth being nutty about...tilll now
chose mx5 as i thought it was cheap reliable economical and fun...then i caught a diseased desire for more power...having said that i may do an occaisional track day, but i mostly just want reliablity and pleasurable drivability on the street with (lots)more torque and no expensive mantainence problems.
my question(s) is (are)
what is the best supercharger for the job. i gathr jrsc is not the go.
hot side or cold side?
ffs sounds good, but the cooling 5th injecter sounds a bit dodgy to this technophobe.
what about the VF engineering fom \"go miata\" in the us of a?
what other options are there?
mx mania say the hotside is best...i gather because it can be inter cooled.
they all come with tuning cards, but mania say put an adaptronic ecu to make it all work proprly...what do ya reckon
i dont want a turbo..... and i know....i should sell the nba and buy an se...too late , im already in love
as an aside i have very cute full stainless exhaust inc headers, mania cai, signature sway bars...im thinking of lightened flywheel and fm butterfly brace..and a roll bar. i gather i can upgrade the clutch but i am not going to flog it too hard so ??
all opinions and suggestions are very welcome
thank you
martin
whats the best supercharger for nba
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mhj
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Boags
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Hi Martin!
Welcome to the forum and the obsession!
Yes, you should upgrade your clutch.
I tend to think the cold side is not the best solution for Aus spec cars. There is a lot of merit for it in the US of A because of the side of the car the driver (and associated things) is on.
If it were me, I'd go hotside, and definitely through the powercard in the bin.
Other than that, I can't offer advice; to date I have been a turbo man.
Good luck,
Boags
Welcome to the forum and the obsession!
Yes, you should upgrade your clutch.
I tend to think the cold side is not the best solution for Aus spec cars. There is a lot of merit for it in the US of A because of the side of the car the driver (and associated things) is on.
If it were me, I'd go hotside, and definitely through the powercard in the bin.
Other than that, I can't offer advice; to date I have been a turbo man.
Good luck,
Boags
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MxJadeMonkey
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Turbo it!
use a gt25/60r with a .6 rear housing.
More power, less boost, Less stress, less noise, similar cost, great low end torque still as smaller turbo will spool faster.
and yes i have dríven both, many times.
but if super charging is the way you are set on going, use hot side and intercool it.
thats my 2c!
use a gt25/60r with a .6 rear housing.
More power, less boost, Less stress, less noise, similar cost, great low end torque still as smaller turbo will spool faster.
and yes i have dríven both, many times.
but if super charging is the way you are set on going, use hot side and intercool it.
thats my 2c!
1991 NA6 Velocity Blue (Ford Colour)
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mhj
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cheers for the input jade monkey
seems most people say turbo...but i also read that superchargers are for old people who just want some more torque...and other than the old part that sounds like me.
i gather that the sc can make apx 140-150 kw...sounds like a s**t load to me! so though the turbo can make more..i dont reckon i'll need it. also attracted to the allegation that the sc has imediate throttle response.
both forced induction alternatives would work well enough re power...but which is most reliable and trouble free i wonder. which would be nicer to drive
another thing i think i like re sc is i keep the headers( and cai)..though i s'pose they could be sold
enjoy
mhj
seems most people say turbo...but i also read that superchargers are for old people who just want some more torque...and other than the old part that sounds like me.
i gather that the sc can make apx 140-150 kw...sounds like a s**t load to me! so though the turbo can make more..i dont reckon i'll need it. also attracted to the allegation that the sc has imediate throttle response.
both forced induction alternatives would work well enough re power...but which is most reliable and trouble free i wonder. which would be nicer to drive
another thing i think i like re sc is i keep the headers( and cai)..though i s'pose they could be sold
enjoy
mhj
mhj
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Boags
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16bit on this forum has 160kW from a Rotrex supercharger. It goes like a scaulded cat; although noise is a problem with headers.
Boags
Boags
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Boags
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Benny
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Before you go spending any money on this, join the club and go on a few runs and talk to people who actually have a supercharger on their car.
I know there a few in the NSW Club.
Also, talk to turbo owners and try and get a ride in each of the cars to see for yourself what would suit you best.
Don't think superchargers give instant response from low down, because they don't.
Like turbos, they need revs to build boost, and produce virtually nothing at idle anyway.
I know there a few in the NSW Club.
Also, talk to turbo owners and try and get a ride in each of the cars to see for yourself what would suit you best.
Don't think superchargers give instant response from low down, because they don't.
Like turbos, they need revs to build boost, and produce virtually nothing at idle anyway.
ALWAYS RUNNING, SP with Bilstein Coil Overs and Doof Doof sound. Member of the Fat Bastards Racing Team
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orx626
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Re:
Benny wrote:Don't think superchargers give instant response from low down, because they don't.
Like turbos, they need revs to build boost, and produce virtually nothing at idle anyway.
Benny are you referring to centrifugal or positive displacement superchargers? ie. Rotrex or Eaton?
Cheers,
Danny
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Benny
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A cenrtifugal is virtually just a turbo connected to the fan belt, so I guess it must be the positive displacement types.
However, from the few supercharged cars I've dríven over the years, I didnt feel much below about 3K on any of them anyway.
I guess that under that, the power needed to run the supercharger just about equals the benefits of the boost they produce.
At low revs, they produce very liitle boost anyway, unless they are large and push a lot of air, but then you'd need a wastegate on them to blow off the excess boost at higher revs.
I guess you can glean that I'm a turbo fan, having owned 5 different turbo'ed cars in my life.
I've just never been overly impressed with superchargers.
Sure they can boost your power, but they do have parasitic losses as well.
I also know that on a AA/FD rail, the supercharger can use as much as 1,000hp just to run it.
Obviously, that isn't the case with a street supercharger, but it brings home the point that every supercharger needs horespower to run, and the more they boost, the more power they require to run.
On the fuel consumption front, when cruising, most turbos aren't even in boost, but a supercharger is always on boost, unless you have them connected via an electric clutch, so theoretically, a turbo engine can be more economical than one producing similar power by a supercharger.
However, from the few supercharged cars I've dríven over the years, I didnt feel much below about 3K on any of them anyway.
I guess that under that, the power needed to run the supercharger just about equals the benefits of the boost they produce.
At low revs, they produce very liitle boost anyway, unless they are large and push a lot of air, but then you'd need a wastegate on them to blow off the excess boost at higher revs.
I guess you can glean that I'm a turbo fan, having owned 5 different turbo'ed cars in my life.
I've just never been overly impressed with superchargers.
Sure they can boost your power, but they do have parasitic losses as well.
I also know that on a AA/FD rail, the supercharger can use as much as 1,000hp just to run it.
Obviously, that isn't the case with a street supercharger, but it brings home the point that every supercharger needs horespower to run, and the more they boost, the more power they require to run.
On the fuel consumption front, when cruising, most turbos aren't even in boost, but a supercharger is always on boost, unless you have them connected via an electric clutch, so theoretically, a turbo engine can be more economical than one producing similar power by a supercharger.
ALWAYS RUNNING, SP with Bilstein Coil Overs and Doof Doof sound. Member of the Fat Bastards Racing Team
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greenMachine
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Benny, I'm no expert, but a centrifugal blower is definitely not positive displacement.
What you say is correct, up to a point ...
Think about it, it can't be boosting all the time (ie generating parasitic losses) and not be adding power - the blower RPM is directly proportional to engine revs, so even at low engine revs there is significant boost. Parasitic losses at low throttle openings (ie highway cruising) are reduced by using bypasses which effectively allow the supercharger to run in a 'no-load' mode.
On the other hand, any centrifugal blower (incl turbo) is operating inefficiently and ineffectively at low revs. This can be ameliorated by using small turbos/compressors designed to work lower down the rev range, at the cost of inefficiencies at the top end. More difficult to 'size' a centrifugal/turbo for power low down and big power at the top end.
To simplify, turbos are simpler to install and possibly more reliable, generate more HP/$, and possibly are a better solution for low boost/low HP setups, and high to very high (+1.5 bar) boost.
Superchargers such rootes/screw types (not centrifugal) are more complicated, but can produce flatter torque curves. This is good for the street. By implication, they are more suited to medium to high HP applications. One drawback of these positive displacement blowers is that they heat the air as it is compressed inside the blower - this means they require intercooling at lower boost levels than the equivalent boost centrifugal/turbo. They aslo produce a distinct whine, which some people love, and others find intrusive.
If I was looking for 180+RWKW, I would go turbo, no question. Below that, I think the choice (for me) would require considerable investigation based on what I wanted to use the car for, how much power I wanted, and the actual costs of all the various bits ...
Others will no doubt have differnt views, but that is my 2c worth
I strongly second Benny's suggestion to ride in different cars before you lock in to any particular solution. That also includes having a hard think about what you want, and what you plan to do with it. There are three supercharged cars that I know of here in Canberra (2 x M62, 1 x M45) plus a centrifugal blower car on the south coast, and any SP owner will be a soft touch I am sure
Good luck
What you say is correct, up to a point ...
Think about it, it can't be boosting all the time (ie generating parasitic losses) and not be adding power - the blower RPM is directly proportional to engine revs, so even at low engine revs there is significant boost. Parasitic losses at low throttle openings (ie highway cruising) are reduced by using bypasses which effectively allow the supercharger to run in a 'no-load' mode.
On the other hand, any centrifugal blower (incl turbo) is operating inefficiently and ineffectively at low revs. This can be ameliorated by using small turbos/compressors designed to work lower down the rev range, at the cost of inefficiencies at the top end. More difficult to 'size' a centrifugal/turbo for power low down and big power at the top end.
To simplify, turbos are simpler to install and possibly more reliable, generate more HP/$, and possibly are a better solution for low boost/low HP setups, and high to very high (+1.5 bar) boost.
Superchargers such rootes/screw types (not centrifugal) are more complicated, but can produce flatter torque curves. This is good for the street. By implication, they are more suited to medium to high HP applications. One drawback of these positive displacement blowers is that they heat the air as it is compressed inside the blower - this means they require intercooling at lower boost levels than the equivalent boost centrifugal/turbo. They aslo produce a distinct whine, which some people love, and others find intrusive.
If I was looking for 180+RWKW, I would go turbo, no question. Below that, I think the choice (for me) would require considerable investigation based on what I wanted to use the car for, how much power I wanted, and the actual costs of all the various bits ...
Others will no doubt have differnt views, but that is my 2c worth
I strongly second Benny's suggestion to ride in different cars before you lock in to any particular solution. That also includes having a hard think about what you want, and what you plan to do with it. There are three supercharged cars that I know of here in Canberra (2 x M62, 1 x M45) plus a centrifugal blower car on the south coast, and any SP owner will be a soft touch I am sure
Good luck
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it
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mhj
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my brain is hurting ..fortuntely that is sure sign of awareness expanding.
join the club i must.... ride in the options as said options present is, it seems, the best thing to do
so far i have figured out that the screw type sc does the flat torque curve thing...that was the source of my initial thinking...i really want everyday drivability enhansment...i like my licence so im not that rabid a driver, though my partner emphatically disagrees.....not sure about the centrofugal ( turbo run via engine crank?!?!).
its the torque that i really thought interesting...i dont think i need the extreme power promised by the turbo...though of course to a point more is good
i get the idea that both options are reasonabley reliable, and economical, until you spend petrol going faster
i gather that both/ all options require aftermarket ecu
im sure there is more information to discover and collate
enjoy
mhj
join the club i must.... ride in the options as said options present is, it seems, the best thing to do
so far i have figured out that the screw type sc does the flat torque curve thing...that was the source of my initial thinking...i really want everyday drivability enhansment...i like my licence so im not that rabid a driver, though my partner emphatically disagrees.....not sure about the centrofugal ( turbo run via engine crank?!?!).
its the torque that i really thought interesting...i dont think i need the extreme power promised by the turbo...though of course to a point more is good
i get the idea that both options are reasonabley reliable, and economical, until you spend petrol going faster
i gather that both/ all options require aftermarket ecu
im sure there is more information to discover and collate
enjoy
mhj
mhj
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Sean
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Re:
Benny wrote:Before you go spending any money on this, join the club and go on a few runs and talk to people who actually have a supercharger on their car.
I know there a few in the NSW Club.
Also, talk to turbo owners and try and get a ride in each of the cars to see for yourself what would suit you best.
Best advice in this thread.
No matter what people say, or how the physics look on paper there is no substitute for getting your butt into a completed car. The owners are always happy to tell you what they think, what it costs, and how to avoid the traps they fell into.
When results speak for themselves - don't interrupt.
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Mr Morlock
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mhj - I get the impression that you need to do some more homework and investigation of practicalities. If you go either route of forced induction expect a $$ expenditure and perhaps the need for more robust clutches- a recent post on clutch updates ended up very expensive ( at least in my view)There are options of increasing power without perhaps breaking the bank but still maintaining fuel economy and drivability. I am not sure what you have to divulge to insurance co's or State reg depts but I suggest you need to know. Enjoy your car.
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mhj
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cheers mr m
i concure with your home work advice ..and so it continues
so far i have removed the coldside sc option...that leaves hotside sc...twin screw type( but maybe centrofugal type though it seems i may as well get turbo if i was to go for this) or turbo...most votes it seems are for turbo, and trusted dave @ mania is adament this is the best option
ive got a mania cai...and a full stainless exhaust ...that made a significant and discernable difference ....but got me hooked...am thinking of adding adaptronic ecu plus tune....but ultimately this gets me up too 90-100 rwk according to the forum thingies ive read....
maybe wait another 200k then rebuild it with all the bits and balances bored out...impatient....
asked about throttle bodies but this seems to acheive great responce, terrific sound and little or no extra grunt...for lots of cash and lots of ongoing tune issues( again all this info is second hand)
i do, in my more mature and sensible moments wonder if i should just chill the heck out and save my 10 k...(do i really need to go any faster!?!?!)...inc new radiator , clutch, fuel pump, guru diff, expensive brake pads, lightened flywheel., probable intercooler.have i forgotten anything?....
yes i forgot the engineering certificate because im past the drive it illegally age( though gio said they dont mind all these bits so long as i tell them)
hmf...maybe go back to the sensible family man car ive been driving for the last 20 years.....NO ....that can no longer be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what other ways are there to acheive significant power with reliability???
( maybe go buy a bmw z4 )..im not after a fire breathing beast, just the pleasure of freedom as i disappear from the past in a relatively economical blast.....i want to make mixxy just a little bit \"sic\"
enjoy
mhj
i concure with your home work advice ..and so it continues
so far i have removed the coldside sc option...that leaves hotside sc...twin screw type( but maybe centrofugal type though it seems i may as well get turbo if i was to go for this) or turbo...most votes it seems are for turbo, and trusted dave @ mania is adament this is the best option
ive got a mania cai...and a full stainless exhaust ...that made a significant and discernable difference ....but got me hooked...am thinking of adding adaptronic ecu plus tune....but ultimately this gets me up too 90-100 rwk according to the forum thingies ive read....
maybe wait another 200k then rebuild it with all the bits and balances bored out...impatient....
asked about throttle bodies but this seems to acheive great responce, terrific sound and little or no extra grunt...for lots of cash and lots of ongoing tune issues( again all this info is second hand)
i do, in my more mature and sensible moments wonder if i should just chill the heck out and save my 10 k...(do i really need to go any faster!?!?!)...inc new radiator , clutch, fuel pump, guru diff, expensive brake pads, lightened flywheel., probable intercooler.have i forgotten anything?....
yes i forgot the engineering certificate because im past the drive it illegally age( though gio said they dont mind all these bits so long as i tell them)
hmf...maybe go back to the sensible family man car ive been driving for the last 20 years.....NO ....that can no longer be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what other ways are there to acheive significant power with reliability???
( maybe go buy a bmw z4 )..im not after a fire breathing beast, just the pleasure of freedom as i disappear from the past in a relatively economical blast.....i want to make mixxy just a little bit \"sic\"
enjoy
mhj
mhj
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