Mazda Rotary MX-5 Miata Conversion Kit

Engines, Transmissions & Final Drive questions and answers

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orx626
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Re:

Postby orx626 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:08 pm

Sean wrote:No disrepect, you seem to know your stuff, but 100 odd kilos is not hard to find with only very basic mods.

You could make half of it with a big heavy wheel and tyre combo.
Add in all available factory options like hardtop, PS, AC etc and you have another 25+ and you're getting VERY close.


Yeah no problems Sean :D . I know exactly where you're coming from. There's a few 20BT powered RX-3's and RX-7's (series 1 & 2) getting around in SE Qld...all have mod plates and been processed by Qld Transport....however none of them comply 100% with the code of practice and I'm not talking about some minor modification code interpretation issue either....blatant ignorance actually....but at the end of the day what does it really matter? As we know cars are only as safe as the nut behind the wheel. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sean what you're proposing appears to be a loop hole in the NSW RTA system...and why shouldn't we make the most of the opportunity they have presented? Just my luck if I had a crack at it I'd get busted! :evil:

Cheers,
Danny

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Postby Sean » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:28 pm

Cheers mate, ther's plenty of 13bt RX3s here in NSW too, and a few MX5s that have been signed off shonkily. The most popular 2 practices seem to be getting the car engineered as an \"injected 13b\" rather than a turbo, and the old switcheroo - getting it tagged as a 12at, rubbing back the 13b on the housings. A cluey copper or the rta inspectors seem to know these tricks though, and either question why there is a turbo hanging off your engine, or get out the calipers and measure the housing to figure it's not a 12AT, but a 13BT.

I'm not sure why they don't just go genuine 12ATs, look at the recent 7 sec pass on small tyres, no 13bt has done ti yet, but a 12at has :shock: so it's not liek you can't make the same power, I suspect it's teh lack of parts, and also some ignorance on the owners parts, there are plenty of big name workshops who will hapilly take your cash for a drive in drive out 13bt conversion on your RX3, and even organise thier shonky engineer to pass it as mentioned above as an inejcted 13b.

Like you have aluded to, an engineer can only sign off on modifications where the statute or regulations specify an engineer can sign off. Engineers do not have the power to legalise something that is not legal, and like you said a few have lost thier right to certify cars here in NSW for passing dodgy conversions.

In NSW (and probably the other states) the regulations specify capacity/weight ratios within which you can legally register a passenger vehicle. If you want to go outside these, the car would need to complied as an ICV (individually constrcted vehicle).


I think the importing of a heavier than aus spec vehicle is legit and a decent way to go here in NSW if you really wanted to build a rotary turbo MX5, and by my assumptions a big set of wheels, hardtop, AC, PS, and you'd be close, if you needed to push it over, why not throw a big MDF box with a big amp and sub in the back?

I've just re-read the rules, and you could actually get a 20bt into a 4 cyl in NSW as long s it weighed 1100kg. I reackon with some creative thinking (not shonky paperwork) you could see your import MX5 upto a weight of 1100kg and legally fit the 20bt. Although I think fitting a 20bt to an mx5, legla or not, it's the owner who would be certifiable, not the car!

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The RTA considers a rotary capacity to be 2x it's swept volume.

So for the most common rotary conversions, assuming the car weighs under 1100kg:

20B NA: 3924cc equivalent, anything over 1308kg
20BT: 1570kg minimum

13B NA: 2616cc, 872kg min
13BT: 1046kg min

12A NA: 2292cc, 764kg min
12AT: 917kg min


If the car weighs over 1100kg you could legally put any of the 12a, 13b or 20b NA or turbo varients in.

An engineer can only sign off on modifications where the statute or regulations specify an engineer can sign off, they do not have the power to legalise something that is not legal. They can only fulfil functions conferred on them by others. In NSW (and probably the other states) the regulations specify capacity/weight ratios within which you can legally register a passenger vehicle. If you want to go outside these, the car would need to complied as an ICV (individually constrcted vehicle).
When results speak for themselves - don't interrupt.

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Postby orx626 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:39 pm

Sean, the only thing that I have to add is that you can't install an engine that has its applicable emissions older than that of the car you are installing it into. Unless you want to pay the $10k plus to have the full ADR testing done. ie. 12A and 12AT cannot be installed in anything built from 1986 onwards with its factory engine management. This was the other criteria I applied when I detailed this....

Schultzy, the only legal conversion is using the current model RX-8 13B which on paper will suit all MX-5's NA-NC, however the RX-7 FC (series 5) naturally aspirated 13B is OK for NA's between 1989 and 1991. The allowable displacement calculator (LA1 Option 3 - Modification code) doesn't allow the installation of either RX-7 FD (series 6) 13BTT or FC (series 5) 13BT. 12A's are way too old!


Cheers,
Danny

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Postby Sean » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:53 pm

Right you are!

I've often wondered about teh issue of age identifiaction on rotary engines. They don't really have an engine number as such, and besides most converstions will use the 12A front, so how would an offical determine the \"age\" of your 13b?
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Re:

Postby orx626 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:01 am

Sean wrote:Right you are!

I've often wondered about teh issue of age identifiaction on rotary engines. They don't really have an engine number as such, and besides most converstions will use the 12A front, so how would an offical determine the "age" of your 13b?


The actual engine number (all 13B's up to the last of the S6 RX-7's) is on the front plate (the one right behind the timing cover). The only way to determine what generation of 13B it is is by its inlet manifolding and in some instances its exhaust manifolding, and of course the factory ECU part number.

Regards,
Danny

ps. Cheers for the on-line conversation :D

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Re:

Postby Sean » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:11 am

orx626 wrote:
Sean wrote:Right you are!

I've often wondered about teh issue of age identifiaction on rotary engines. They don't really have an engine number as such, and besides most converstions will use the 12A front, so how would an offical determine the "age" of your 13b?


The actual engine number (all 13B's up to the last of the S6 RX-7's) is on the front plate (the one right behind the timing cover). The only way to determine what generation of 13B it is is by its inlet manifolding and in some instances its exhaust manifolding, and of course the factory ECU part number.

Regards,
Danny

ps. Cheers for the on-line conversation :D


Yeah, interesting convo! I'd always thought you could use an old block with modern manifolding etc (there is some interchangability) and no-one would know if you used the 12A cover like most conversions do, I could be mistaken, but I thought I had heard that at a fairly well know rotary shop I used to spend a lot of time in :oops:
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Re:

Postby mr_rotary » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:38 pm

orx626 wrote:Sean, the only thing that I have to add is that you can't install an engine that has its applicable emissions older than that of the car you are installing it into. Unless you want to pay the $10k plus to have the full ADR testing done. ie. 12A and 12AT cannot be installed in anything built from 1986 onwards with its factory engine management. This was the other criteria I applied when I detailed this....

Schultzy, the only legal conversion is using the current model RX-8 13B which on paper will suit all MX-5's NA-NC, however the RX-7 FC (series 5) naturally aspirated 13B is OK for NA's between 1989 and 1991. The allowable displacement calculator (LA1 Option 3 - Modification code) doesn't allow the installation of either RX-7 FD (series 6) 13BTT or FC (series 5) 13BT. 12A's are way too old!


Cheers,
Danny


The Mazda HB Cosmo had a 12A turbo from 1982 - 1989 8)

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Re:

Postby orx626 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:20 pm

mr_rotary wrote:The Mazda HB Cosmo had a 12A turbo from 1982 - 1989 8)


Yep...forgot that one...so you can just scrape a 12AT into a 1989 NA6.

Regards,
Danny

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Postby phaedo » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:53 pm

How stupid are these rules here? Why can you not put an engine over a certain size in a vehicle because of the curb weight of the vehicle? Power to weight ratio should be the rule. Like in NZ, when on a learners licence to ride a motorbike, the biggest engine size you can have is 250cc. But that rule means I can buy a 250cc race bike and be legal on that basis, yet cannot ride a Harley that is going to have all the power of a wet bag of hair - just because of engine size.

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Postby bruce » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:31 am

Something to note regards the first post of a conversion kit. It's in the US where cars are left hand drive, so I doubt the kit will fit Aussie cars.

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Postby nfs13b » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:12 pm

Wow looks like Sean has been paying attention a little too closely....

In NSW it is extremely difficult to legally put a 13b turbo into an NA mx5 but also with the 15 year rule now changed is is also almost impossible to do the not quite legal things that Sean is talking about.

The 1050kg weight for a 13bt is the Tare weight though so I dont think all the accessories etc you want to add to make the weight really means that much.
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Re:

Postby mr_rotary » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:13 pm

bruce wrote:Something to note regards the first post of a conversion kit. It's in the US where cars are left hand drive, so I doubt the kit will fit Aussie cars.


Can you explain a little further :?:

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Re:

Postby orx626 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:06 am

Jaron wrote:Yep...forgot that one...so you can just scrape a 12AT into a 1989 NA6.

Regards,
Danny

...so is thay saying you can fit any 12AT into the MX?


Yep if you can prove that you have a genuine 1989 HB cosmo 12AT and all it's associated emissions gear (incl. ECU). 8)

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Postby Sean » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:45 pm

Although I suspect you'd need to get the 12AT emissions tested too, as I dont think the Cosmo it came out of was ever complied for Australia?
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Postby nfs13b » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:15 pm

When I got the 13b emissions tested I dont that with the Microtech and the RTA guy didnt care... It passed too
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