NC supercharger storys and lies

[raceme81]

so having done a heap of reasearch over the last few weeks and speaking to the so called experts i can say there is a lot of crap going round about sc kits on the nc. i wont use any names but i can say that one place who is fitting them has no idea what there doing. there telling people stuff about rules things for rego and what they say is rubbish. there are a lot of unhappy guys who have had work done there and ended up with cars they cant even drive! they send out emails saying the engineerings all done and passed but when you push them its all crap.they cant pass the emission test... others say its cause the tunes so bad with idle all over the place and running lean and engine lights on i spent a lot of time on the big board pm'ing guys there and here and what comes over more and more is the secret is in the tune. good news finally is jay at tdr has finally sorted out the crap and is getting the job done. he says hes working with a couple of aussie guys to sort out there nightmare from the othe rplace and get the cars running right. the other main tuner supplys the tune file for the place in sydney seems to have quite a reputation this came from the other thread http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=472692
i spoke to 2 other well known mx5 workshops here and one uses the sniper tune from moto east and the other wont do the sc ones even though they do the na ones. hopefully some of the owners with these cars will tell there storys soon so no one else gets screwed.
thanks to those guys ive emailed pm'ed and spoke to - u know who u are and youve saved me a nightmare

[bruce]

I would like to know if a Cosworth S/C kit can be;
1/ Legally engineered (cost)?
2/ Registrable in Victoria?

I'd rather not hear long winded stories of 'this'n'that' and 'he reckons it can be done'.

[NitroDann]

I would like to know if a Cosworth S/C kit can be;
1/ Legally engineered (cost)? Yes, in NSW with a standalone or piggyback ecu, would cost the kit, plus ecu plus tune plus IM240 fees plus engineering fees
2/ Registrable in Victoria?no chance right now, nobody in australia can tune factory ecus which would be needed for legal fitment

I'd rather not hear long winded stories of 'this'n'that' and 'he reckons it can be done'.

Answer your question?

Dann

PS: Also while Im at it, i also brought up these issues here in the turbo NC thread, Ill also not name drop for the same reasons, Thats why it sounds like all heresay, but it isnt, PM some people yourself.

[Magpie]

National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)

The National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (VSB 14) has been prepared by members of the Australian Motor Vehicle Certification Board Working Party in consultation with industry, user groups, government agencies and individuals with an interest in modifying light vehicles and/or building individually constructed light vehicles (ICVs).

VSB 14 is a "live" document and will continue to be revised and updated as required.

VSB 14 essentially provides the technical requirements that need to be met when modifying or constructing a vehicle. It does not cover the administrative requirements of each State and Territory.

Modified vehicles must continue to comply with the ADRs to which they were originally constructed, except as allowed for in the AVSR. These modified vehicles must also comply with the applicable in-service requirements of the AVSR.
Modified pre-ADR vehicles must continue to comply with the AVSR. Compliance with the AVSR also means compliance with the equivalent regulations of a State or Territory of Australia.

A non original equipment engine with its turbocharger/supercharger may be installed under Code LA1 provided the power output is not 20% more than the most powerful optional engine offered by the manufacturer for that vehicle model.

A non original engine with its turbocharger/supercharger may be installed under Code LA2 if the power output is 20% more than the most powerful optional engine offered by the manufacturer for that vehicle model.

When engines are modified, by fitting turbochargers and/or superchargers (with or without alternative components such as camshafts, carburettors and engine management systems), proof of compliance with the relevant ADR is required (refer to Code LT3 Gaseous Emissions Test in Section LT Test Procedures).

Aftermarket Engine-Management Computers
The use of aftermarket engine management computers (not OEM) does not guarantee compliance with the relevant ADR unless that particular computer/engine combination has undergone ADR emission testing and the evidence of compliance is available (refer to Code LT3). If no evidence is available, the vehicle must be tested in accordance with the applicable ADRs.

[bruce]

Thanks Dann. I suspected such.

After reading the link at miata.net, it seems no one can tune the cars correctly with a supercharger (turbos seem OK?). You would think some computer geek could sit down for 100 hours and sort it all out?

[Magpie]

However based on the new rules once somebody puts a supercharger on a NC and gets it tuned to meet the emission laws etc and provided that the supercharger and the ECU are the same other people can piggy back on that approval. All it will take is for one person to do all the ground work.

There was a comment in the MX5 Plus open day thread about a supercharger for a NC being under development. One could assume then that part of this development is to ensure that it complies with the relevant emission laws etc hence why it is not a quick fix solution. However if it is made available one should expect that the development costs would have to be recovered!

[neilhr]

Hi guys,

Please read my report here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=474782

Raceme81, I am not sure what you have heard so I won't comment. The Dynotronics tuning has been the only major problem for me. I expected to have minor hiccups with engineering certificate. There are only a handful of forced inducted NC's in Australia, so we are in a way pioneering the way for the future. It isn't a nightmare, these things take time! In fact I will doing some measurements tomorrow to help Jay with the development of the RHD turbo kit. I will be going for my emissions test very soon, which I am not worried about. Then it is a matter of the engineer doing the paper work and sending to the RTA. This is for NSW, but I am unsure on the other states.
I got good service from Deckspeed and Daniel did a fantastic job on the installation. Joe's poor Dynotronics tune and service really needs to be addressed though.

Neil

[Zohxoco]

The supercharger kit looks pretty solid to me. I don't see any significant physical issues being reported with it so far over time. Agree also on Deckspeed installation. Daniel's installation on my car is truly magnificent. The dynotronics tuning has been an issue up to now.

The kit will pass IM240 without an issue with the correct tuning. And I think I would know...

[orx626]

Joe's poor Dynotronics tune and service really needs to be addressed though.Neil

FWIW....alarm bells were ringing for me when Dynotronics posted in this thread. Their explanation of why the HKS F-Con IS piggy back computer was too dangerous to be used on the NC was shallow and unsubstantiated. Basically, their 'experience' was diametrically opposed to my own.

One thing for sure, that in the past two years of playing with the HKS product on my NC I've never had any issues with the tune....idle, cruise, WOT or anything in between. Like you Neil, I too was burnt pretty badly by a re-flash software package, except is was for the RX-8 (circa 2009). That's when I went the piggy back option and haven't looked back since. Back in the day we had regular problems with 'bricking' of the PCM when the reflash was underway. This resulted in the complete 'as-built' data having to be re-entered into the PCM to get the car going again. Lucky I have a good working relationship with a Mazda dealer or it would have cost me hundreds of dollars. The other issue that raised my concerns with re-flash software (back in the day) was when we had two mechanically identical RX-8's (both supercharged) and took the flash tune from one (roughly 10:1 AFR) and transferred it (unedited) to the other. We were gobsmacked when the resultant AFR's were 12:1!!!! Yet it was the exact same flash tune!!! It had the reflash service provider gobsmacked...he had no answer for the outcome and spent many hours trying to work out why. What we learnt from this was that there were hundreds of tables within the PCM that he did not know what they were for...it was clear to us that they were definitely having an effect!!! The factory PCM's are an awesome unit....I just don't think that anyone so far has been able to completely decipher every corner of it. As such, I lost all confidence in the facility.

Now this is my personal experience. I'm not trying to steer anyone any particular way. I'm sure the current re-flash packages that are now available on the market are far more stable...my tuner re-flashed a Nissan R35 GTR this week that had just been fitted with the HKS GT600 upgrade and he was more than happy with the tune (Cobb). Turning our focus back to the NC...in my experience to date I'm yet to see a flash tune package match what is currently possible with a good piggy-back. With more data logging being undertaken and fed back to the flash tune developers, the flash tunes will get better and eventually match what is currently achievable with a piggy-back. It's just time and money!

Regards,
Danny

[raceme81]

Please read my report here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=474782

i just finished reading and man its crazy. it looks like joe at dynotronics is scamming everyone

The following day I received a call from the ADD. Joe had told them I was dealing with TDR and they politely warned me that Jay was trying to steal Joe’s tune, I would lose my warranty, they would not help me get my Engineering Certificate and proceeded to discredit Jay’s lack of experience.

so it was someone at deckspeed saying this. you end up with a crap car and when you get tdr to sort it out they dish out threats. i hope you got your money back from them!

Then it is a matter of the engineer doing the paper work and sending to the RTA.

you even spoken to an engineer. i wouldnt mind getting the contact cause the one i got fron michael at deckspeed didnt even know what was going on.

The dynotronics tuning has been an issue up to now.

so your one is ok or not

The kit will pass IM240 without an issue with the correct tuning. And I think I would know...

yeah well good luck with that but let us know if it ever does pass

FWIW....alarm bells were ringing for me when Dynotronics posted in this thread.

never saw that one before but looks like joes been talking the same crap for some time

[neilhr]

hey Danny,

I am very new to this and have not used a piggy back at all. But from what I have learnt from TDR Jay is that every NC's tuning is different and really needs to be custom tuned. At least with Jay, he is very easy to contact and the tunes come very quickly. That is shocking that the RX-8 AFR's were so different.

Apparently only a fraction of the NC's ECU maps has been reversed engineered thus far. Enough to create a safe tune, but I think it's uncertain what map the ECU will use at an given time and if that one map has not been adjusted then its definitely not good. This is what happened to the first Sniper/Cosworth tune that blew engines.

Hopefully with all the logging I am doing I can help Jay to get a good base tune for the Aussie NC's. My car's been flashed 7 times now and I expect a lot more!

[NitroDann]

Both people posting in this thread with the kit and flash tune have confirmed that the hardware works fine however the cars do not run properly, wont pass emissions, cannot be dríven at WOT safely, and nobody in the country is able to tune the car, they also are illegal, and once out of registration will not be able to be re-registered.

I already said all this didn't I?

And stop saying the cars are fine, they aren't you both just said they don't run right as nobody can tune it, and the Aussie SC kit supplier is using a tune that they didn't confirm worked right and still doesn't and is unable to change it, and somebody has a car for sale because it cannot be registered as its illegal and in his state cannot be engineered and needs to be complianced which does cost tens of thousands of dollars.

hey Danny,

I am very new to this and have not used a piggy back at all. But from what I have learnt from TDR Jay is that every NC's tuning is different and really needs to be custom tuned. At least with Jay, he is very easy to contact and the tunes come very quickly. That is shocking that the RX-8 AFR's were so different.

Of course it does when you are asking 50+% variations in fueling and ignition.


Apparently only a fraction of the NC's ECU maps has been reversed engineered thus far. Enough to create a safe tune,if the cars so much as tips into a map that hasnt been changed it isnt safe, and as you said there are dozens and 90% of those havnt been reverse engineered. A safe tune that pulls engine lights on, runs in boost at >13:1 AFR etc? but I think it's uncertain what map the ECU will use at an given time and if that one map has not been adjusted then its definitely not good. This is what happened to the first Sniper/Cosworth tune that blew engines. And the tunes in australia are supplied by dynotronics, as bad a snake oil salesman as FFS

Hopefully with all the logging I am doing I can help Jay to get a good base tune for the Aussie NC's. My car's been flashed 7 times now and I expect a lot more!

I hope so too for everyone involved, I just cannot believe that a kit that risks 10k of damage is being sold for 10k when nobody within 20 thousand kilometres is able to adjust anything, and its obvious that it wasnt tested thoroughly enough to be safe.

I hope that everything is sorted out, however its clear that one tune doesnt fit all, and that means no compliancing in Victoria and none in the other states without IM240's for each car etc. i sincerely hope you guys get it sorted out, however you have to stop recommending a product that has an improper tune, no matter how much you like the guy fitting it, its extremely irresponsible.

Dann

[neilhr]

I am definitely not recommending it in it's current state, hence why I wrote my report. I say the hardware is fine but the tune needs to be addressed. My car is running safe now and I am not worried about the IM240 because Tim almost passed it on the Dynotronics tune because of lean idle. Which we already knew it had. I am certain there will be better FI packages in the future.

[orx626]

Hopefully with all the logging I am doing I can help Jay to get a good base tune for the Aussie NC's. My car's been flashed 7 times now and I expect a lot more!

Hi Neil, now I don't know if this is the same with the NC...but the RX-8 PCM had a finite number of times (100) that you could re-flash it. Late in the RX-8 re-flash development I believe that this limitation was removed. Definitely worth asking the question. Maybe the PCM manufacturer was concerned about it's stability once reflashed over 100 times? I've got no idea on that one.

What you've said above is my main issue with re-flashing....at this stage there is no 'live' tuning function; which is what you have with the 'piggy-back' option. It's going to take a substantial amount of time to achieve an equivalent level of refinement.

All the best with the project.

Cheers,
Danny

[neilhr]

Thanks for the heads up, I will make sure to ask. I don't think there is a limit because Jay has reflashed his own car hundreds if not thousand of times.