Confused about SE compared with SP

davekmoore · Postby **davekmoore** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:57 pm

.
Looking through this forum, it seems a standard SE may have certain things going for it over an SP such as (and please correct me if I'm wrong, and add other variations if you know about them):

Strengthened gearbox
Maintenance free turbo mountings
LSD
Stronger A pillars
Darkened headlight lenses
Bodykit (although this might actually be an unimprovement)
17s (as above since 45s on 16s might be better than 40s on 17s)

So if it is the case that an SE has certain worthwhile advantages, and since it seems to be possible to modify an SE motor cheaply with Mazdaspeed type stuff to easily go past the SP's 157 flywheel kw, then why will people pay a premium for SPs over 157+kw SEs?

Surely not rarity - they're all massively mass produced MX5s after all?

broady · Postby **broady** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:24 am

Rarity - there's 100 of them, and the fact that they come with that power stock.

Having dríven one, I can tell you it was a LOT of fun. :mrgreen:

in b4 lock.

Hammer · Postby **Hammer** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:30 am

davekmoore wrote:....So if it is the case that an SE has certain worthwhile advantages, and since it seems to be possible to modify an SE motor cheaply with Mazdaspeed type stuff to easily go past the SP's 157 flywheel kw, then why will people pay a premium for SPs over 157+kw SEs?

Surely not rarity - they're all massively mass produced MX5s after all?

Can of worms.... :mrgreen:

But seriously, this topic has always been subjective.

I guess if you consider 100 built for the SPs not rare, then I guess they're not.

But if you get an SE build it up to have the same power of the SP (or even more), at the end of the day, you'll have a modified SE (not an SP). There's nothing wrong with that so long you're happy with it.

Its like building up a XY Falcon GT to the same (or better) spec as the XY Falcon GTHO Phase III, but no matter how much money and how much better parts you put in it, at the end of the day, it'll still be an XY GT with mod parts.

And in my experience, the older the car is, the more people want it original with no mods when buying it second hand.

broady · Postby **broady** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:41 am

As you can already see, SPs are becoming something of a collector's item. Just like a low km NA8 Clubman.

You can add a Torsen, remove aircon and PS, chuck on some coilovers and you have something that is/exceeds Clubman spec. But it's not a Clubman...

Locutus · Postby **Locutus** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:52 am

here we go again.

my 2c before the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan...

as above, you cannot compare the two if you are also factoring in modifications.
in stock form the SP still has the highest power output of any factory delivered 5 in australia (perhaps the world?). i would also argue that the SP is not a mass produced vehicle, as they did not roll out of a big production line and straight into the dealerships.

by your logic (factoring in mods), why pay a premium for SE when you can buy an NA (arguably a better, more classic sports car) and spend the difference on mods? surely you can blitz SE/SP performance by throwing $15k at an NA.

davekmoore · Postby **davekmoore** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:15 am

Locutus wrote::roll: here we go again.

by your logic (factoring in mods), why pay a premium for SE when you can buy an NA (arguably a better, more classic sports car) and spend the difference on mods? surely you can blitz SE/SP performance by throwing $15k at an NA.

I have no logic, merely curiosity.

Not sure $15k on an NA would blitz an SE with even $8k spent on it, as it doesnt have a turbo to start off with and still wouldn't have ABS, airbags, stronger 6 speed, LSD, Bilstiens, bigger brakes, better seats, chassis strengthening, etc etc. But yes, it is more the classic sports car.

I take the point about exclusivity and which you prefer being down to personal choice. For instance, a 430 Scuderia is worth more than a standard 430, but I'd be driving the standard 430 if I had the money (with a Scuderia parked at a race track for when I wanted to go quicker). MGR8s are worth more than MGBs, but I'd have my brother's 160bhp 4 pot rather have than the 170bhp V8.

If there were logic applied I guess you'd have an SP then modify that?????

Awaits further howls ................

Tezzax5 · Postby **Tezzax5** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:01 am

Dave it may come as surprise but not everybody has the urge to modify their cars...
With mine everything that i have changed can easily be converted back with no holes or wear marks..
With cars it's all about emotion and passion..
Why the SP for me?
Rarity,race cred(Targa Tassie),no real need for any extra horsepower (you can only go as fast as the road speed limits) and it reminds me of an era of my life that i really enjoyed....
And at the time i couldn't afford a supercharged bullet (one day)
Why not the SE?
When i was looking they were the same price as a NC
Also the bodykit...Not my cup of tea (bodykits belong on SS hatchback torana's)...
After owning a fairly clean clubman as well as the SP what do i still miss the most...
Believe it or not but i still miss the clubman...
Get one the boys down there with a clubbie to take you for a spin....Absolute Giggle
If i wanted outright speed then there better places to park my money...
It's great that MX5's come in so many varieties...
Something for everyone...

sits back with popcorn.... :lol:

Locutus · Postby **Locutus** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:41 am

davekmoore wrote:Not sure $15k on an NA would blitz an SE with even $8k spent on it, as it doesnt have a turbo to start off with and still wouldn't have ABS, airbags, stronger 6 speed, LSD, Bilstiens, bigger brakes, better seats, chassis strengthening, etc etc.

i meant $15k of mods on an NA. some of the SE items you have listed aren't necessarily desirable to some.
- turbo: kits are readily available for NAs
- ABS & airbags: great on the street, but unnecessary in a proper sports car.
- 'stronger' 6sp: imo gear shift quality in 6sp worse than 5sp. i don't think anyone has 'upgraded' to an SE box after breaking a standard 6sp, and the SE boxes aren't worth any more than a standard 6sp.
- LSD: requirement in a proper sports car. :lol:

standard in a clubman.
- bilsteins: standard on clubman
- big brakes: requirement with a big power increase, but iirc some track NAs with ~150rwkw on stock sized NA8 brakes
- better seats: NB seats are miles ahead of NA, but are still not supportive enough imo
- chassis bits: more upgrades are readily available for NAs

in any case they are all great cars, whether NA6/NA8/NB8A/NB8B/NB8C/SP/SE/NC1/NC2. each have their advantages & disadvantages, so it comes down to personal preference and budget.

Tezzax5, i know exactly how you feel. i still miss my NA8, even though the SP is a much better car overall. right on the money there about the passion of car ownership.

Sean · Postby **Sean** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:53 pm

davekmoore wrote:Stronger A pillars

Hadn't heard that?

93_Clubman · Postby **93_Clubman** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:37 pm

Tezzax5 wrote:After owning a fairly clean clubman as well as the SP what do i still miss the most...
Believe it or not but i still miss the clubman...
Get one the boys down there with a clubbie to take you for a spin....Absolute Giggle

Dave had a drive of mine, when I had a drive of his SE. The power of Dave's SE was very impressive - instantaneous & smooth but very powerful delivery which just kept on going. I wouldn't like to have to choose one over the other - ideally they'd be parked side by side in a garage, & depending on mood, you'd pick accordingly. Personally, the rawness of the Clubman appeals to more senses, but it's a very fine line.

Tezzax5 · Postby **Tezzax5** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:05 am

93_Clubman wrote:
Tezzax5 wrote:After owning a fairly clean clubman as well as the SP what do i still miss the most...
Believe it or not but i still miss the clubman...
Get one the boys down there with a clubbie to take you for a spin....Absolute Giggle

Dave had a drive of mine, when I had a drive of his SE. The power of Dave's SE was very impressive - instantaneous & smooth but very powerful delivery which just kept on going. I wouldn't like to have to choose one over the other - ideally they'd be parked side by side in a garage, & depending on mood, you'd pick accordingly. Personally, the rawness of the Clubman appeals to more senses, but it's a very fine line.

So true about the closeness of having to choose but the reason that the clubman works for me is exactly what you have described...(rawness)
You have to work just a little harder on getting apex's just right to keep up corner speeds..
But more importantly it is just so easy to break speed limits in both SE's and SP's...You really need track time to get the most out of all the performance from these beasts
I hope Dave puts up a comparison on stepping back in power and getting to drive a real road legal go-kart...

davekmoore · Postby **davekmoore** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:00 am

Tezzax5 wrote:
93_Clubman wrote:
Tezzax5 wrote:After owning a fairly clean clubman as well as the SP what do i still miss the most...
Believe it or not but i still miss the clubman...
Get one the boys down there with a clubbie to take you for a spin....Absolute Giggle

Dave had a drive of mine, when I had a drive of his SE. The power of Dave's SE was very impressive - instantaneous & smooth but very powerful delivery which just kept on going. I wouldn't like to have to choose one over the other - ideally they'd be parked side by side in a garage, & depending on mood, you'd pick accordingly. Personally, the rawness of the Clubman appeals to more senses, but it's a very fine line.

So true about the closeness of having to choose but the reason that the clubman works for me is exactly what you have described...(rawness)
You have to work just a little harder on getting apex's just right to keep up corner speeds..
But more importantly it is just so easy to break speed limits in both SE's and SP's...You really need track time to get the most out of all the performance from these beasts
I hope Dave puts up a comparison on stepping back in power and getting to drive a real road legal go-kart...

Reckon people of this forum know I don't resist the opportunity to comment. So ..........

Several 200+bhp V8s and 4 pot turbos in the UK, then in Aus a Golf convertible, an NA6 and an NB8. No speeding fines up to getting the SE. Four fines in a few months since. All for only a few kms over.

Of all the scores of cars I've had the three MX5s have been the most fun by far, partly because being an ex pom I can drive with the roof down nearly all the time here and still think I'm warm enough, but also because they reward decent driving so effectively.

Of the MX5s, the NA6 was the most fun for the highest percentage of the time I used it because its limits were low and it had so little power. So you had to make it work hard to make any progress then keep the speed on in the corners, and all without getting into (much) trouble.
The NB8 had the world's loudest CAI on it so sounded very fast, but actually was only marginally quicker. It was more refined though, and felt like it was less fun because of that.
BARMY the SE has all the power I thought was lacking from the other two. And now that I'm doing 1000+kms per week the further extra refinement is appreciated. I've learned not to speed, mainly by being in fourth gear whenever there's a 60 limit or lower. Knee and elbow pads have made a surprisingly big difference to comfort. Soon to be fitted cruise control will also add comfort as well as reduce highway speeding fines.

Before deciding to keep BARMY I drove various other more refined and bigger convertibles including BMWs and Porsches and was just bored. BARMY has clearly spoiled me.

In a perfect world I'd have BARMY for the track, a Clubman for weekends, and an R8 or M3 auto convertible for work. But I can only afford one car, which is why I'm now keeping BARMY and further civilising him and starting to do some track days. I just reckon I'm very lucky to have found one car that combines lots of what a Clubman, an SE/SP and an R8/M3 can do.

Caffeine · Postby **Caffeine** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:32 pm

Sean wrote:
davekmoore wrote:Stronger A pillars

Hadn't heard that?

Thicker padding on the A pillars for crash protection. Standard on all NB8C (2003+), including the SE...

The actual A pillar itself isn't any stronger.

In the end, the best MX5 is always the one parked in your garage. I've dríven every model, modified and not, and still come back to my car as the one that does it for me

The MX5 is relatively unique in that it doesn't need to be modified to have fun. Having said that, there's so much scope for modifications that no two MX5's will ever be the same. That's one of the strengths of the car

THE REAL BORIS · Postby **THE REAL BORIS** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:54 am

I had a $30k SP lined up in Sydney & only went into the local Gold Coast dealers to see what an MX5 was like close up.

They had 3 SE's for sale new at $40k on road (marked down from almost $50k just before the fire). The SP was, let's be honest here, a tuned up aftermarket kit albeit from a very professional crowd but not a factory job & VERY expensive. The SE from the factory has a larger radiator, oil cooler, stronger engine mounts, beefed clutch & gearbox, Torsen & 3.636 diff., driveline upgrades, springs/dampers/wheels/tyres, the pre-VVT & the whole bit. So, I canned the SP & bought a new SE. I will never be old enough to see any MX5 going for big money to a collector, who will. Lots of FM parts later & it's a better car in every respect than the SP. Only my choice & my opinion but neither are any compensation for my now departed old 336cu.in. SLR. or the 455HO Trans Am etc. etc. etc. My SE was a 'sensible' purchase, given my car history.

Telling someone else what car to buy is like telling them what they should wear or even which woman to choose!!

There, I'l go back into my box for another year and won't even glance at the flack this will create.

So, go buy a Mk.1 & spend $30k on it and have even more fun doing it.

Hjt · Postby **Hjt** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:16 pm

There, I'l go back into my box for another year and won't even glance at the flack this will create.

2 years actually

I came across this thread whilst searching for diff coolers.

Interesting thing, I have a stock SP (125rwkw) and recently drove a 150odd rwkw SE. The SE is brilliant by all means, better factory package etc, but I prefer the timed delivery of my SP spooling much lower.

Thoughts? Who has dríven both, stock or modified?