NA 1.6 Supercharger

[tjcool]

Hi all

Just after a bit more advice/ info about a supercharger install.

after 5 years of having the the MX5 and wanting to supercharge it every day for those 5 years i am finally in a position around tax time this year to do it.

Ive read a bit on the forum and got some bits an pieces and had a bit of a look around at moss and whatever and basically im wondering if there are many other options out there for a kit I can put on my 1.6 NA apart from the JR mp45 kit ?

All the other options i seem to come across ( m62) are for later models. And ive got a bad feeling from reading all this that the JR kit is ok but not anything special and maybes not the best option.

I am pretty mechanically OK so was wanting to do the install myself so am wondering if those that have supercharged a 1.6 might be able to give me some advice.

Ive got my heart set on supercharging it rather than turbo

thanks

tim

[zoomzoom]

Just curious, is there any particular reason you are looking supercharger rather than turbo?

I understand they both have good and bad points, you should just be sure you have weighed them all up. That said I am not biased toward either, I have friends who have fitted both and have my preferences for myself, but depending what you are using the car for one or the other may be more suitable for you.

Cheers, Tim

[Tedsmx5]

Just curious, is there any particular reason you are looking supercharger rather than turbo?

I understand they both have good and bad points, you should just be sure you have weighed them all up. That said I am not biased toward either, I have friends who have fitted both and have my preferences for myself, but depending what you are using the car for one or the other may be more suitable for you.

Cheers, Tim

My boost starts at 1800rpm, at 35% of WOT, I love the torque (but turbos are great too)!
Ted

[mx52nv]

Simon's SE hits full boost at 2000rpm and (turned down) it now makes 305 rwhp
I love HKS turbos

Sorry for the off topic post OP
Normal transmission may now continue

[Saffa]

Hi all

Just after a bit more advice/ info about a supercharger install.

after 5 years of having the the MX5 and wanting to supercharge it every day for those 5 years i am finally in a position around tax time this year to do it.

Ive read a bit on the forum and got some bits an pieces and had a bit of a look around at moss and whatever and basically im wondering if there are many other options out there for a kit I can put on my 1.6 NA apart from the JR mp45 kit ?

All the other options i seem to come across ( m62) are for later models. And ive got a bad feeling from reading all this that the JR kit is ok but not anything special and maybes not the best option.

I am pretty mechanically OK so was wanting to do the install myself so am wondering if those that have supercharged a 1.6 might be able to give me some advice.

Ive got my heart set on supercharging it rather than turbo

thanks

tim

Hey Tim

I have a FFS MP62 going my 1.6 at the moment, there have been a few issues with it (so the tuner tells me), so I dunno if its good to bolt on at home. Apparantly there was a bit of machining down of bits and pieces. Its still getting some tuning things sorted out now, but that is an option if you want a SC. Check my post in garage section for a few more details and on the FFS site.

Any idea of a budget for your install at all??

[Tedsmx5]

Tim,
I purchased a M45 SC second hand from eBay US for $880au + $80au freight, it came with the engine mounting bracket, (all for an NB but it fitted my NA8) dummy throttle body and NB throttle body attached to the SC. Intercooler again from eBay US (note the $1au = 95c us) and locally sourced bits. SC parts like pulleys came from Track Dog Racing US (very helpful). First thing is to find an aluminium fabricator who will do some TIG welding for you at the right price . Pipe adaptors are from my local exhaust shop, they can expand ss pipe to go from the pod filter size to the throttle body size very easily. If you do your own engine work you can install a M45 Supercharger. But don’t rush, lots of fiddle bits to do, use the forums as a library of information, there’s so much on the web. I downloaded the install manuals before I started, but most of it’s common sense. Good luck I know how you feel I waited 3 years to save up.
Ted

[tjcool]

thanks saffa and ted

the issue with the US$ now is an obvious issue
wish i had the cash when it was 95cents
ive got an inital budget of about 5 grand
is this enough ?

would you guys reccomend an intercooler straight up or could i do it later ?

[93_Clubman]

the issue with the US$ now is an obvious issue
wish i had the cash when it was 95cents ive got an inital budget of about 5 grand is this enough? would you guys reccomend an intercooler straight up or could i do it later?

$5k - plenty for this & no intercooler required - FFS MP62 Coldside
$3.5k:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33490&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45

Pls note this basically brand new & is setup for an NA8, but I don't think it would be too difficult to fit with the appropriate parts to your NA6.

[Saffa]

thanks saffa and ted

the issue with the US$ now is an obvious issue
wish i had the cash when it was 95cents
ive got an inital budget of about 5 grand
is this enough ?

would you guys reccomend an intercooler straight up or could i do it later ?

If you go with a Jackson Racing you can run without intercooling, check out mokesta and orx626's posts in the garage section, though they are both 1.8's its the same setup essentially, with this kit you'll have the option of adding the IC later on. Big G has a 1.6JRSC kit so maybe check out his thread as well.

With the budget, I guess if you could do as Ted did it is a very achievable , though you'd be very lucky to find a second hand kit over here for cheap let alone near what he paid, but never say never i guess. You could get a new kit from the US, then save up a bit more and put it on later though??

[orx626]

Hi guys, FWIW here is my opinion on the whole supercharger kit shebang (non brand specific).

In my particular case I have the Jackson Racing M45 kit on an NA8 BP engine with the smaller supercharger pulley. Now this arrangement produces 6psi of boost at its maximum and also puts the supercharger at its maximum rated rpm. Of course you could over speed it, but all that would do is reduce the life of the supercharger unit and move its performance out further into a lower efficiency area (which means higher intake temperatures and lower volumetric efficiency). Even at only 6psi the intake air temperatures in the inlet manifold (when on the dyno) have exceeded 100 deg C which is not conducive to particularly aggressive timing (mind you the temperatures at the air filter would've had to have been at least 50 deg C ....this is why CAI's are still important on FI engines).

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is because my supercharger is effectively maxed out ie. no more boost available without negative consequences, it really isn't economically viable to intercool the intake charge because of the minimal hp gains available with my arrangement. When I say minimal, at best I could get an increase from 135 rwhp to 145 rwhp. However, for those of you that have engine/supercharger combinations with the opportunity to increase the boost level or already have boost pressures in excess of 6psi I highly recommend intercooling as the cost to hp ratio will be far more favourable and your engine will thank you for it.

Now intercooling of supercharger kits that relocate the throttle body upstream of the supercharger is not as straight forward as you might think. Throttle response of these sorts of kits are sensitive to the intake system volume between the throttle body up to and including the intake manifold. ie. the larger the volume, the poorer throttle response. So to minimise the negative effect of this, the best option would be the use of an air to water intercooler arrangement (re Saffa). Air to air intercoolers and the associated plumbing increase the intake volume substantially and further reduce the throttle response. As this is always going to be subjective, some people will state that it is not an issue for them...and that is fine...but it could be better. I won't get into the the pros and cons of air to water and air to air intercoolers here, I just wanted to highlight this particular characterisitic. PM me if you have questions about intercooling. For those who already have an air to air intercooler with the upstream throttle body, you can improve the throttle response by returning the throttle body to its original position. However you then need to manage the compressed air volume between the supercharger and the throttle body when the throttle closes. This has been covered on the "big forum".

The previous paragraph is directed at "Hot side kits". "Cold side kits" that have the supercharger as part of the inlet manifold do not readily lend themselves to intercooling. Air to air is not possible (ie. pointless, as a dogs breakfast would be unavoidable) and air to water needs to be integrated into the inlet manifold...which means serious design work. In spite of this, if the inlet manifold is designed well, it will produce better numbers than if the same supercharger unit was mounted on the "Hot side" and not intercooled.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Danny

[93_Clubman]

Great write-up! Thanks Danny!

[Phil @ P5]

Hi guys, FWIW here is my opinion on the whole supercharger kit shebang (non brand specific).

In my particular case I have the Jackson Racing M45 kit on an NA8 BP engine with the smaller supercharger pulley. Now this arrangement produces 6psi of boost at its maximum and also puts the supercharger at its maximum rated rpm. Of course you could over speed it, but all that would do is reduce the life of the supercharger unit and move its performance out further into a lower efficiency area (which means higher intake temperatures and lower volumetric efficiency). Even at only 6psi the intake air temperatures in the inlet manifold (when on the dyno) have exceeded 100 deg C which is not conducive to particularly aggressive timing (mind you the temperatures at the air filter would've had to have been at least 50 deg C ....this is why CAI's are still important on FI engines).

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is because my supercharger is effectively maxed out ie. no more boost available without negative consequences, it really isn't economically viable to intercool the intake charge because of the minimal hp gains available with my arrangement. When I say minimal, at best I could get an increase from 135 rwhp to 145 rwhp. However, for those of you that have engine/supercharger combinations with the opportunity to increase the boost level or already have boost pressures in excess of 6psi I highly recommend intercooling as the cost to hp ratio will be far more favourable and your engine will thank you for it.

Now intercooling of supercharger kits that relocate the throttle body upstream of the supercharger is not as straight forward as you might think. Throttle response of these sorts of kits are sensitive to the intake system volume between the throttle body up to and including the intake manifold. ie. the larger the volume, the poorer throttle response. So to minimise the negative effect of this, the best option would be the use of an air to water intercooler arrangement (re Saffa). Air to air intercoolers and the associated plumbing increase the intake volume substantially and further reduce the throttle response. As this is always going to be subjective, some people will state that it is not an issue for them...and that is fine...but it could be better. I won't get into the the pros and cons of air to water and air to air intercoolers here, I just wanted to highlight this particular characterisitic. PM me if you have questions about intercooling. For those who already have an air to air intercooler with the upstream throttle body, you can improve the throttle response by returning the throttle body to its original position. However you then need to manage the compressed air volume between the supercharger and the throttle body when the throttle closes. This has been covered on the "big forum".

The previous paragraph is directed at "Hot side kits". "Cold side kits" that have the supercharger as part of the inlet manifold do not readily lend themselves to intercooling. Air to air is not possible (ie. pointless, as a dogs breakfast would be unavoidable) and air to water needs to be integrated into the inlet manifold...which means serious design work. In spite of this, if the inlet manifold is designed well, it will produce better numbers than if the same supercharger unit was mounted on the "Hot side" and not intercooled.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Danny

Hey Danny, we've solved all that! 1600, MP62, intercooled and throttle body in the stock location This one's running ~230bhp at the flywheel, so double stock:

[orx626]

Well done Phil excellent job!!

Cheers,
Danny

[GS]

Hey Danny, we've solved all that! 1600, MP62, intercooled and throttle body in the stock location This one's running ~230bhp at the flywheel, so double stock:

Wow, thats a beautiful engine bay. Super clean, and almost looks like it came from the factory like that. Nice install.

[93_Clubman]

Hey Danny, we've solved all that! 1600, MP62, intercooled and throttle body in the stock location This one's running ~230bhp at the flywheel, so double stock

Looks very impressive & sounds like you've overcome some major challenges.