MX5 supercharger kit information
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:53 pm
Okibi, perhaps this might be worth making a sticky thread?
What follows is a compilation of Forumites thoughts on various supercharger kits for the MX5 for those thinking of going down that path. Thanks to everyone for their questions & comments, particularly tk421, who obviously did much research before buying.
Kits other than those mentioned below are the Autorotor kit by BEGI; Ubercharger kit by Flying Miata; & Vortech kit by VF Engineering. Autorotor & Vortech are in use in Aust, but not sure about the Ubercharger...
mhj:
what is the best supercharger for the job. i gathr jrsc is not the go. hot side or cold side? ffs sounds good, but the cooling 5th injecter sounds a bit dodgy to this technophobe. what about the VF engineering fom "go miata" in the us of a? what other options are there? mx mania say the hotside is best...i gather because it can be inter cooled. they all come with tuning cards, but mania say put an adaptronic ecu to make it all work proprly...what do ya reckon
Boags'MX5:
I tend to think the cold side is not the best solution for Aust spec cars. There is a lot of merit for it in the US of A because of the side of the car the driver (and associated things) is on. If it were me, I'd go hotside, and definitely through the powercard in the bin.
MXJadeMonkey:
but if super charging is the way you are set on going, use hot side and intercool it.
Prinju:
I'm wanting to SC my MX5, but i'm not sure which road to go down? Jackson Racing or Fast Forward? Price looks about the same from Mania (JR) and Fast Forward shipped. Does anyone know much about these SCs, pros & cons etc.
Fuzzlet:
I wanted to supercharge my car when I first bought it, but as I was wanting a fair amount of power, I was told to avoid the JR chargers (FFS werent around at that stage). I had them described to me as \"a bolt on mod for the older generation that dont want something fast, just something with a little more torque for the hills of the freeway\".
tk421:
Price is about $1300 USD more for the FFS last time I looked at the JR($2400 old) price. I presume you are talking about the eaton based kit and not the new rotrax based one?
Fuzzlet is right with what he is saying but based on this assumption here is some comment from the conversations I have had on the subject over the last 18 months or so:
JR
With the basic fuel solution supplied with the kit it doesn't like idling. If you put a full computer on it will be a lot better in this respect, however a full computer is quite a decent sized expense on top of the kit and will involve reasonable dyno time to get correctly configured depending on which one you use.
The pullies supplied with the standard kit are by all reports rubbish. Meaning that you will have to order some decent ones for it when you buy it. This is a couple of hundred USD on top expense.
Being a hotside the jackson can be intercooled, however the blower has trouble producing more than 8-10 psi boost because its fairly small. So whilst a benefit hp wise it can't be fully utilised.
Mania's comment to me on the Jackson is that by the time you spent money on all the bits that should have come with it in the first place it will be as expensive as all the more expensive kits, and probably not as good.
I have heard of an intercooled Jackson producing 116kw (6psi boost) with the basic powercard solution (and the owner was happy with it). I also know of another that has a intercooler and a full computer that has 130 rwkw (and the owner was much happier with it after he ditched the powercard - boost level not known to me). So clearly they can be successfull but the kit makes you work for it. There are plenty of sob stories on the Jackson on miata.net from people that just gave up in disgust. Personally that kept me away from it.
FFS Coldside
Its significantly more expensive but its a better thought out kit.
It sits on the other side on its own inlet manifold. There is a very short path from the throttle body to blower to pistons. As a result throttle response is reportedly immediate.
It can't be intercooled, however it comes with an auxliary fuel system that works really well.
It comes with by all reports a good fuel solution, the powercard pro (not a full computer but it does what its supposed to - keep the AFR steady and maintain - not add to - emissions). Idle behaviours and smoothness supposed to be great.
The kit comes with a fifth injector that allows it to run more boost (10-12 psi).
The kit is based on a MP62 supercharger that is bigger than the Jackson M45, therefore its capacity for more boost is much higher.
The kit has 140-150rw kw in standard config (though yes yet to be proven on an Australian car). There is some room for more boost = bigger pulley on earlier cars (2000 and earlier) but not on an NB8B (2001 or later right?).
The kit comes with the best set of pulleys available. 6 rib belt and an auto tensioner. No tracking issues whatsoever. Belts will last as long as your timing belt.
The kit is designed to achieve the stated power level consistently. A claim that Jackson cannot match (seems to be a bit of variation there).
As a result of having more hp a new radiator / clutch may be higher on your list of mods (the Jackson has less therefore your old bits will cope better).
As the purchaser of the FFS coldside I can report that Tom is great bloke to deal with and is only to happy to assist with any problems. I have no doubt that his willingness to chat on the phone /reply to emails will be of great assistance to Mania who are installing my kit. Being in Arizona 9:00am our time is 4:00pm yesterday their time meaning he can be talked to during daylight.
To me its a no brainer, ANY MP62 based kit is better value than the Jackson kit. There is another kit marketed by Moss motorsport that has been linked to recently in the engines forum. You may consider this one as well as the FFS. I was surprise but it looks alright. It uses the PC Pro computer as well but does not run a fifth injector I think so therefore has less hp. It is however around 600 odd USD cheaper.
There is another kit marketed by http://www.stageonetuning.com/. They just can't seem to get their fuel system sorted out, personally I would keep away from them. They seem to have quite a few frustrated customers.
If you are considering the FFS coldside please make sure you read Chris P's thread in mx5cartalk MX5 General Chat. There is important info there re shipping costs and duty etc that you must factor into your purchase. That info is obviously useful whichever kit you choose to go for.
sprx3:
ive been looking at the JRSC kits but im told that the power isnt the best from the JR kits & any upgrades go backwards & the Moss kit has around 25hp more then the JR which should put the car pretty much where i want it... Could anyone give there experiences with either or kits?
tk421:
The Moss Kit is a new one (hotside) based on a 62 cubic inch supercharger. The old JR was a 45 cubic inch. The 62 flows a lot better than the 45 as well and has more potential for boost (probably 20 psi or even more really).
I believe there is the the odd BRP kit in Oz but I don't think anyone apart from Chris P in Adelaide and myself have an MP62 based kit (we have the Fast Forward Supercharger Kit). Nobody over here would have the Moss Kit as yet.
For my FFS coldside presently I am waiting on my install to be finished which has had the odd space related challenge - therefore no impressions from me yet (Chris loves his though and recently achieved the target hp numbers). On an NB8A there is an issue with location of the brake lines requiring some re routing, on an NB8B whilst its a squeeze there are far less issues.
Re the Moss kit or Turbo? Depends on what you are after. If ultimate HP was my only goal I guess I would have gone turbo. It wasn't though. Basically I wanted 140kw atw & cool noises coming from under the bonnet along with factory driveability etc. I have no doubt in my case that a turbo would have been a bit easier to fit in hindsight.
For me the road less travelled was the one I wanted to take to achieve my goals though hence I ordered the FFS kit. Tom the guy that runs the business also provides great service which is certainly a commodity.
As a counterpoint there are also heaps of people on this site that love their turbo kits and there are certainly many with impressive HP numbers. I'm sure they are great to drive but given the choice it wasn't for me.
If you are unsure of which way to go maybe you should experience a Supercharged and Turbo'd MX5 via the passenger seat of some friendly club members and decide for yourself on that basis.
Comparing the Moss to the FFS. The Moss kit being a hotside is more conventional, therefore you will have far less install issues. The PC pro that comes with the kit by all reports is a great piggyback (FFS kit has two). You can also intercool it which you can't do with the FFS coldside.
That said the other thing you might want to consider is that if you prefer a hotside, Tom from FFS also markets one these days similar in config to the Moss. This also comes with a PC pro (x1 or x2 I think). The postive about both Tom's kit's is that there are people out there that are actually using them at the moment. Tom has done a lot of R&D to make sure they work.
The Moss kit whilst basically the same is somewhat of an unknown at this stage (there could be subtleties in the config of the PC pro for example). I am also unsure of whether the moss has a 4 rib or 6 rib pulley, 6 rib is better (FFS use 6). The Moss kit does have timing control as well though which is an asset. The FFS kit is a few hundred USD more expensive which may or may not matter to you.
Something that was important to me is that the coldside kit was carb (emissions) approved in California. I believe Tom is in the process of going for carb approval for the hotside. If you plan to get it engineer certified (and really, you should) this could be an advantage - not to say the Moss kit wouldn't be capable of passing an Aussie emission test also however.
To further muddy the waters \"16bit\" is currently having bulletsportscars install a rotrex SC on his car. His thread is entitled \"Mule Car\" just below. Sounds like it could be interesting. If After deciding which way to go you favour a SC then it might be good to see what his results are like at least. It will after all be locally available.
16bit:
The rotrex solution is very good but it is expensive (i have one and as you are in brisbane you can drop around any time to check it out - I may even let you drive it). It is very nice to drive and you can get some serious hp with the correct version. The cold side kit is fine but you will not be happy with 190whp - trust me. If you want the best most cost effective solution that has capacity for big hp without compromising on drivability I would investigate the MP62 based hotside kits. You can have a proper intercooler and there is much more support for it out there then the coldside kit. That and the coldside kit was designed for the lhd cars in the states and I think its not quite as simple to install - don't quote me but I just remember reading something. Although I believe that the rotrex is the best out there as its the lightest and smallest while can deliver the most hp it is the most expensive. If you have a big budget buy one - its worth it. If not get the hotside kit. It gives you more flexibility.
16bit:
Btw, the rotrex you want is a C30-94. Make sure you get the 94 not the 84 as the 84 is more limited in total power output. It will cost no more to get the 84 or 94 and they are exatly the same on the outside so no different brackets.
That cost would be supply only. You will need to either install yourself or get it installed. Not sure on that cost. Also take into account that you will be getting a base only map. Because the tune was done on my car which is an nb8a with 9.5 comp ratio I would take it straight to chiptorque or a local tuner that is comfortable with using the xede processor to get it retuned as you car being a 10AE has the newer 10 comp ratio motor in it. Also speak to them about how much power you want so you can get the correct supercharger pulley to make enough boost.
Hope this helps. Its a great system and can assure you that its plenty quick.
yarnmx5:
just was reading about your supercharger install experiences. Was wondering if you were able to get them "emissions approved". Same old story for SA and NSW. I reckon there is a bit of a niche market here for a company to get a kit that is legal in all states...like they have for superchargers on commodores etc. Expected rwkw for NA6? Any ideas?
tk421:
Tom from FFS currently has a kit in test for the NA6. He's expecting 170hp at the wheels or more due to the lower comp pistons in the NA6 allowing more boost. At last count I think the car made it to 175hp however there was something wrong with the "mule" engine which is being sorted out.
I will be going for my second emissions test when I get round to booking it. My fuel curve looks alright and most of the emissions control is down to the cat (my exhaust is brand new). The fact that I have the factory ecu still in place also means I have whatever emission controls are built into it. My fuel curve looks a lot like a factory SP or SE one (we compared them on the dyno). As a result I'm not expecting any issues. I'll be sure to put up a "hip, hip, hooray" post when it does pass though
skimad:
I saw this M45 JRSC on ebay thought some one might be interested
tk421:
Its certainly a great price fella's. Whoever decides to bid on this make sure you budget for better piggy back engine management at least. The original powercard is pretty rubbishy. You want to get yourself the new powercard pro (or perhaps Mania's piggyback if it can do similar things) at very least or better still a full ecu. Better fuel solutions with these kits = better idle quality.
The BRP pulleys will only be the 4 rib one's I'm pretty sure unless they have been bought VERY recently (6 rib is the standard now). Whilst much better than the standard Jackson ones they are still not without their tracking / squealing flaws. FYI the old BRP/Stage One Tuning now sells their bits via Flyin Miata.
Don't get me wrong this a better than average starting point. With the BRP pulleys and some timing control thrown in these are useful extras. Just making sure you know what you are getting into.
fastfreddygassit:
Any ideas on projected/possible power out-put? I would have thought between 110-120 rwkw at least?
orx626:
I will be putting some effort into intercooling so it would be nice to see the output somewhere around there as a minimum....time will tell.
Cal:
Make sure you do your research. The M45 Eaton is a pretty small pump and doesn't respond well to the extra piping required for intercooling. You'd need something almost in line with the cross over tube at the front. That is how the Cooper S works. I ended up water injectiong instead.
orx626:
research has been done....its all good....air to water is the go!
What follows is a compilation of Forumites thoughts on various supercharger kits for the MX5 for those thinking of going down that path. Thanks to everyone for their questions & comments, particularly tk421, who obviously did much research before buying.
Kits other than those mentioned below are the Autorotor kit by BEGI; Ubercharger kit by Flying Miata; & Vortech kit by VF Engineering. Autorotor & Vortech are in use in Aust, but not sure about the Ubercharger...
mhj:
what is the best supercharger for the job. i gathr jrsc is not the go. hot side or cold side? ffs sounds good, but the cooling 5th injecter sounds a bit dodgy to this technophobe. what about the VF engineering fom "go miata" in the us of a? what other options are there? mx mania say the hotside is best...i gather because it can be inter cooled. they all come with tuning cards, but mania say put an adaptronic ecu to make it all work proprly...what do ya reckon
Boags'MX5:
I tend to think the cold side is not the best solution for Aust spec cars. There is a lot of merit for it in the US of A because of the side of the car the driver (and associated things) is on. If it were me, I'd go hotside, and definitely through the powercard in the bin.
MXJadeMonkey:
but if super charging is the way you are set on going, use hot side and intercool it.
Prinju:
I'm wanting to SC my MX5, but i'm not sure which road to go down? Jackson Racing or Fast Forward? Price looks about the same from Mania (JR) and Fast Forward shipped. Does anyone know much about these SCs, pros & cons etc.
Fuzzlet:
I wanted to supercharge my car when I first bought it, but as I was wanting a fair amount of power, I was told to avoid the JR chargers (FFS werent around at that stage). I had them described to me as \"a bolt on mod for the older generation that dont want something fast, just something with a little more torque for the hills of the freeway\".
tk421:
Price is about $1300 USD more for the FFS last time I looked at the JR($2400 old) price. I presume you are talking about the eaton based kit and not the new rotrax based one?
Fuzzlet is right with what he is saying but based on this assumption here is some comment from the conversations I have had on the subject over the last 18 months or so:
JR
With the basic fuel solution supplied with the kit it doesn't like idling. If you put a full computer on it will be a lot better in this respect, however a full computer is quite a decent sized expense on top of the kit and will involve reasonable dyno time to get correctly configured depending on which one you use.
The pullies supplied with the standard kit are by all reports rubbish. Meaning that you will have to order some decent ones for it when you buy it. This is a couple of hundred USD on top expense.
Being a hotside the jackson can be intercooled, however the blower has trouble producing more than 8-10 psi boost because its fairly small. So whilst a benefit hp wise it can't be fully utilised.
Mania's comment to me on the Jackson is that by the time you spent money on all the bits that should have come with it in the first place it will be as expensive as all the more expensive kits, and probably not as good.
I have heard of an intercooled Jackson producing 116kw (6psi boost) with the basic powercard solution (and the owner was happy with it). I also know of another that has a intercooler and a full computer that has 130 rwkw (and the owner was much happier with it after he ditched the powercard - boost level not known to me). So clearly they can be successfull but the kit makes you work for it. There are plenty of sob stories on the Jackson on miata.net from people that just gave up in disgust. Personally that kept me away from it.
FFS Coldside
Its significantly more expensive but its a better thought out kit.
It sits on the other side on its own inlet manifold. There is a very short path from the throttle body to blower to pistons. As a result throttle response is reportedly immediate.
It can't be intercooled, however it comes with an auxliary fuel system that works really well.
It comes with by all reports a good fuel solution, the powercard pro (not a full computer but it does what its supposed to - keep the AFR steady and maintain - not add to - emissions). Idle behaviours and smoothness supposed to be great.
The kit comes with a fifth injector that allows it to run more boost (10-12 psi).
The kit is based on a MP62 supercharger that is bigger than the Jackson M45, therefore its capacity for more boost is much higher.
The kit has 140-150rw kw in standard config (though yes yet to be proven on an Australian car). There is some room for more boost = bigger pulley on earlier cars (2000 and earlier) but not on an NB8B (2001 or later right?).
The kit comes with the best set of pulleys available. 6 rib belt and an auto tensioner. No tracking issues whatsoever. Belts will last as long as your timing belt.
The kit is designed to achieve the stated power level consistently. A claim that Jackson cannot match (seems to be a bit of variation there).
As a result of having more hp a new radiator / clutch may be higher on your list of mods (the Jackson has less therefore your old bits will cope better).
As the purchaser of the FFS coldside I can report that Tom is great bloke to deal with and is only to happy to assist with any problems. I have no doubt that his willingness to chat on the phone /reply to emails will be of great assistance to Mania who are installing my kit. Being in Arizona 9:00am our time is 4:00pm yesterday their time meaning he can be talked to during daylight.
To me its a no brainer, ANY MP62 based kit is better value than the Jackson kit. There is another kit marketed by Moss motorsport that has been linked to recently in the engines forum. You may consider this one as well as the FFS. I was surprise but it looks alright. It uses the PC Pro computer as well but does not run a fifth injector I think so therefore has less hp. It is however around 600 odd USD cheaper.
There is another kit marketed by http://www.stageonetuning.com/. They just can't seem to get their fuel system sorted out, personally I would keep away from them. They seem to have quite a few frustrated customers.
If you are considering the FFS coldside please make sure you read Chris P's thread in mx5cartalk MX5 General Chat. There is important info there re shipping costs and duty etc that you must factor into your purchase. That info is obviously useful whichever kit you choose to go for.
sprx3:
ive been looking at the JRSC kits but im told that the power isnt the best from the JR kits & any upgrades go backwards & the Moss kit has around 25hp more then the JR which should put the car pretty much where i want it... Could anyone give there experiences with either or kits?
tk421:
The Moss Kit is a new one (hotside) based on a 62 cubic inch supercharger. The old JR was a 45 cubic inch. The 62 flows a lot better than the 45 as well and has more potential for boost (probably 20 psi or even more really).
I believe there is the the odd BRP kit in Oz but I don't think anyone apart from Chris P in Adelaide and myself have an MP62 based kit (we have the Fast Forward Supercharger Kit). Nobody over here would have the Moss Kit as yet.
For my FFS coldside presently I am waiting on my install to be finished which has had the odd space related challenge - therefore no impressions from me yet (Chris loves his though and recently achieved the target hp numbers). On an NB8A there is an issue with location of the brake lines requiring some re routing, on an NB8B whilst its a squeeze there are far less issues.
Re the Moss kit or Turbo? Depends on what you are after. If ultimate HP was my only goal I guess I would have gone turbo. It wasn't though. Basically I wanted 140kw atw & cool noises coming from under the bonnet along with factory driveability etc. I have no doubt in my case that a turbo would have been a bit easier to fit in hindsight.
For me the road less travelled was the one I wanted to take to achieve my goals though hence I ordered the FFS kit. Tom the guy that runs the business also provides great service which is certainly a commodity.
As a counterpoint there are also heaps of people on this site that love their turbo kits and there are certainly many with impressive HP numbers. I'm sure they are great to drive but given the choice it wasn't for me.
If you are unsure of which way to go maybe you should experience a Supercharged and Turbo'd MX5 via the passenger seat of some friendly club members and decide for yourself on that basis.
Comparing the Moss to the FFS. The Moss kit being a hotside is more conventional, therefore you will have far less install issues. The PC pro that comes with the kit by all reports is a great piggyback (FFS kit has two). You can also intercool it which you can't do with the FFS coldside.
That said the other thing you might want to consider is that if you prefer a hotside, Tom from FFS also markets one these days similar in config to the Moss. This also comes with a PC pro (x1 or x2 I think). The postive about both Tom's kit's is that there are people out there that are actually using them at the moment. Tom has done a lot of R&D to make sure they work.
The Moss kit whilst basically the same is somewhat of an unknown at this stage (there could be subtleties in the config of the PC pro for example). I am also unsure of whether the moss has a 4 rib or 6 rib pulley, 6 rib is better (FFS use 6). The Moss kit does have timing control as well though which is an asset. The FFS kit is a few hundred USD more expensive which may or may not matter to you.
Something that was important to me is that the coldside kit was carb (emissions) approved in California. I believe Tom is in the process of going for carb approval for the hotside. If you plan to get it engineer certified (and really, you should) this could be an advantage - not to say the Moss kit wouldn't be capable of passing an Aussie emission test also however.
To further muddy the waters \"16bit\" is currently having bulletsportscars install a rotrex SC on his car. His thread is entitled \"Mule Car\" just below. Sounds like it could be interesting. If After deciding which way to go you favour a SC then it might be good to see what his results are like at least. It will after all be locally available.
16bit:
The rotrex solution is very good but it is expensive (i have one and as you are in brisbane you can drop around any time to check it out - I may even let you drive it). It is very nice to drive and you can get some serious hp with the correct version. The cold side kit is fine but you will not be happy with 190whp - trust me. If you want the best most cost effective solution that has capacity for big hp without compromising on drivability I would investigate the MP62 based hotside kits. You can have a proper intercooler and there is much more support for it out there then the coldside kit. That and the coldside kit was designed for the lhd cars in the states and I think its not quite as simple to install - don't quote me but I just remember reading something. Although I believe that the rotrex is the best out there as its the lightest and smallest while can deliver the most hp it is the most expensive. If you have a big budget buy one - its worth it. If not get the hotside kit. It gives you more flexibility.
16bit:
Btw, the rotrex you want is a C30-94. Make sure you get the 94 not the 84 as the 84 is more limited in total power output. It will cost no more to get the 84 or 94 and they are exatly the same on the outside so no different brackets.
That cost would be supply only. You will need to either install yourself or get it installed. Not sure on that cost. Also take into account that you will be getting a base only map. Because the tune was done on my car which is an nb8a with 9.5 comp ratio I would take it straight to chiptorque or a local tuner that is comfortable with using the xede processor to get it retuned as you car being a 10AE has the newer 10 comp ratio motor in it. Also speak to them about how much power you want so you can get the correct supercharger pulley to make enough boost.
Hope this helps. Its a great system and can assure you that its plenty quick.
yarnmx5:
just was reading about your supercharger install experiences. Was wondering if you were able to get them "emissions approved". Same old story for SA and NSW. I reckon there is a bit of a niche market here for a company to get a kit that is legal in all states...like they have for superchargers on commodores etc. Expected rwkw for NA6? Any ideas?
tk421:
Tom from FFS currently has a kit in test for the NA6. He's expecting 170hp at the wheels or more due to the lower comp pistons in the NA6 allowing more boost. At last count I think the car made it to 175hp however there was something wrong with the "mule" engine which is being sorted out.
I will be going for my second emissions test when I get round to booking it. My fuel curve looks alright and most of the emissions control is down to the cat (my exhaust is brand new). The fact that I have the factory ecu still in place also means I have whatever emission controls are built into it. My fuel curve looks a lot like a factory SP or SE one (we compared them on the dyno). As a result I'm not expecting any issues. I'll be sure to put up a "hip, hip, hooray" post when it does pass though
skimad:
I saw this M45 JRSC on ebay thought some one might be interested
tk421:
Its certainly a great price fella's. Whoever decides to bid on this make sure you budget for better piggy back engine management at least. The original powercard is pretty rubbishy. You want to get yourself the new powercard pro (or perhaps Mania's piggyback if it can do similar things) at very least or better still a full ecu. Better fuel solutions with these kits = better idle quality.
The BRP pulleys will only be the 4 rib one's I'm pretty sure unless they have been bought VERY recently (6 rib is the standard now). Whilst much better than the standard Jackson ones they are still not without their tracking / squealing flaws. FYI the old BRP/Stage One Tuning now sells their bits via Flyin Miata.
Don't get me wrong this a better than average starting point. With the BRP pulleys and some timing control thrown in these are useful extras. Just making sure you know what you are getting into.
fastfreddygassit:
Any ideas on projected/possible power out-put? I would have thought between 110-120 rwkw at least?
orx626:
I will be putting some effort into intercooling so it would be nice to see the output somewhere around there as a minimum....time will tell.
Cal:
Make sure you do your research. The M45 Eaton is a pretty small pump and doesn't respond well to the extra piping required for intercooling. You'd need something almost in line with the cross over tube at the front. That is how the Cooper S works. I ended up water injectiong instead.
orx626:
research has been done....its all good....air to water is the go!
