MX5CQ Motorsport Competition Classes REVIEW

[MattR]

I think what Tbro said is a good idea, results based on improvement over the year, could be difficult if we get a wet day, but there could be a correction applied reasonably easy.

Back when I was racing in Marque Sports in NSW we had a handicap pointscore that was based on how much you improved your times and results over the year, was a bit complicated as you also had to figure in race results, but just based on times should be pretty easy to sort something out.

[JBT]

Rationalising the classes is a good idea.

It wasn't too bad a few years ago when there was good representation in all classes. Example, there were about five standard and five modified NCs attending, but now we're down to one of each....maybe. The same has happened in the NA and NB classes with virtually no standard cars any more.

The most improved idea is how it all started but then people started slow and wound it up as the year progressed or you ended up with someone who starts the year at about 86 seconds around Lakeside and ends it at 72 seconds taking out the trophy.

I like this (including what constitutes modified etc.) general idea by madjak:

Stock class - NA / NB / NC / ND - (restrictions: Street tyres only, minor performance mods)
This class is designed to accommodate new entrants into the club and anyone keep a car as factory. Also encourage collectors to own and run stock cars. NA's have the weight advantage, NB's have the better chassis and more power etc.

Modified N/A class - NA / NB / NC / ND - (restrictions: N/A only, Must run full interior - basically CAMS 2F class + performance mods)
Can run modifications like ITB's, Chassis strengthening, No Aircon / PS etc. This class is for those that want to spend a bit more on their cars and run r-spec tyres and develop their car to a higher performance spec. Cars must still be road registrable and not be seriously lightened.

Modified FI Class - NA / NB / NC / ND - Turbo and Superchargers (same as Modified class but with FI)

Outright Class - NA / NB / NC / ND - Race cars, V8's, Honda K's, Exocets, extremely lightened cars
This class captures the full race cars through to your more exotic modifications. This class and the FI class would be competing for the fastest times as most of the race cars will be N/A.

[Trackphotos]

..someone who starts the year at about 86 seconds around Lakeside and ends it at 72 seconds taking out the trophy...

*cough*Mattyredlocks*cough*

[JBT]

I'm talking about people who finished the previous year at 76 seconds...

[sailaholic]

I don't really see the point of the stock classes atleast in NA and maybe nb.

Sure examples exist but most are now modified. Most new entrants to the club will have bought one because they are cheap and probably already modified. Let's face it roll bar, coil overs and rims are pretty standard modifications together they will make the car significantly different to stock. And plenty of modified cars run slower then a reasonably stock car with a good driver.

I also don't see the point of separating na and nb. The performance isn't that different except maybe in a super stock category.

If you really want trophies (I question why it's necessary) trophies for 1st in each class.
Classes na/nb naturally aspirated road registered.
Nc/ ND (depending on ND performance) naturally aspirated road registered.

All boosted cars together and race cars.

Most people just want track time not trophies surely. So make the entry cheap and number will come up.

Lots of na/nb owners are now younger people with low income or older people splurging on a cheap fun car.

There are also was to get on track for a weekend session at similar price per lap which means no time off work.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[slug_dub]

Losing classes and the trophies altogether addresses all the problems mentioned in the rationale. Is dropping that stuff actually going to reduce attendance further?

[JBT]

IMO, having seen this go from nothing to where it is now:

The trophies and classes were only ever a bit of a fun additional incentive to improve individual performance, create some fun rivalry and for an end of year get together presentation. It started very simple and then grew arms and legs and took on a life of its own when the support and participation by all models was there. A review, as Adam is doing here, is very appropriate now.

Dropping the trophies and classes completely probably won't affect entry numbers and would not save enough money to subsidise anything of any significance.

The costs for a weekend track day are eye watering and entry fees would thus be high = less entrants (everyone is in a budget) = greater financial risk for the Club. Most people end up with family commitments on weekends too. It is a problem for some. The MX-5 Club is not the only club to run midweek events...even the BMW Club do it...and they're all rich! In any event, this is a completely different issue to the class/trophy question.

[sailaholic]

Agree Andrew!

In regards to the comment about my other clubs I didn't reply as I needed to collect information.

I'm a member of Ipswich west Moreton auto club. That's the club that holds the dirt sprints and autocross events next to QR.
Costs are $90 an event plus cams 2s licence (which gives 10% discount at shannons so cost neutral for some) and club fees for the year ($50). This generally gets you 5 timed two lap sessions.
Some will say that's really expensive. BUT that's a CAMS event complete with cams scruitneering on a weekend and includes Dorian hire. Top 3 in each class get trophies but that does drag on.

Their classes are capacity based with a multiplier for turbo and a separate class for awd turbo. So 1300cc excel will run with a 1600 cc escort.

1800 - 2000 sees current fiesta, mx5, pulsars tx3 laser new civics and 1.8 mx5s. Road registered or complete stripped paddock basher. It's great fun seeing Plohl in his na8 try and beat the 2l escort around the track that only has 2/3s of the power.

End of the day driver skill is generally the deciding factor. But dirt is less power sensitive.

The other club I've done some stuff with is the Renault car club. I've only done the happy laps as I couldn't make sprint day last year. Both of these are weekend events, no trophies.

"1. Happy Laps, where we pay QR $1,000 minimum plus $25 per person for numbers over 40. We charge our members $30 each and $35 each for driving non-members. We therefore need fewer than 40 people to break even." - this is an early morning session untimed for about 30 minutes straight. Breakfast is included for members or $5 extra for non members.

"2. Sprints, where we buy 10 places for $1,500 total. We are allowed to sell 15 or even more places. We sell places to members at $125 each, so we need 12 entrants to break even. I tend to ‘run dead’ once we have 12 entrants, because I don’t want too many people on the track, particularly in a sprint session." These are the half day sessions and obviously no trophies for those that didn't double check the math.

Personally I think the club is crazy not to run a weekend event atleast once or twice a year. It's been on of the biggest impediments to me joining or going to track days.

Cost has always been the complaint when I've brought it up here or Facebook but I think the above shows it's possible.

I think doing a subsidised prebuy of multiple sessions is counterproductive if you are struggling with numbers. The regulars that would have come anyway will pre buy and the ones not sure about it won't want to commit.

Hope this helps the clubs discussion / decisions.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sailaholic]

In any event, this is a completely different issue to the class/trophy question.

Is it really our are you looking to fix a symptom rather then a problem?

The impression I got was there used to be enough entries to fill the classes and now there is not and total attendance is dropping.

If you go looking at a root cause analysis it sure seems like there is a bigger problem.

1st step back is numbers are down. So you then have to ask "why are numbers down"
Is it - changed owner demographic
Cost
Availability
Competition from other track time sources like super lap / maximum attack etc.
how many people attending are members of the club?
How is club numbers vs track attendance numbers.
Are club numbers down the same % as track numbers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trackphotos]

2. Sprints, where we buy 10 places for $1,500 total. We are allowed to sell 15 or even more places. We sell places to members at $125 each, so we need 12 entrants to break even. I tend to ‘run dead’ once we have 12 entrants, because I don’t want too many people on the track, particularly in a sprint session." These are the half day sessions and obviously no trophies for those that didn't double check the math. ... ...Cost has always been the complaint when I've brought it up here or Facebook but I think the above shows it's possible.

All that shows is that buying a group during a QR-run sprint day is feasible for a handful of cars. That's not track hire on a weekend, that's pre-buying spots that they would fill on that sprint day anyway. The difference is that it puts an upper limit on the number of entrants, and that limit is far below the current 40-55 entrants we get on some Lakeside days. QR will not alienate their regular sprint series entrants by allowing the club to book half the slots available on that day, that's what private track hire is for. If you intend to run a club championship through QR's own sprint days, you are limiting your championship entrants each round to 20 or less.

[madjak]

I don't really see the point of the stock classes atleast in NA and maybe nb.

Sure examples exist but most are now modified. Most new entrants to the club will have bought one because they are cheap and probably already modified. Let's face it roll bar, coil overs and rims are pretty standard modifications together they will make the car significantly different to stock. And plenty of modified cars run slower then a reasonably stock car with a good driver.

Stock classes really mean cars (and drivers) with a base performance level. Changing rims, suspension and brakes would still be classed as 'stock' unless someone is moving to 11" Wilwoods or something non-factory that massively effects performance. This is really where it gets challenging to set classes, but if you look at the base motivation I think it's pretty easy to see who should be in what class. The stock class is there for beginners and the slower drivers. You want that class to be having different winners and people progressing and dropping their times as they are learning the ropes of motorsport. Anyone specifically setting up a car to fit into that class to win it shouldn't be in the class in the first place.

Also, safety additions should never cause a class change so that includes roll over protection, race seats and harnesses, fire extinguishers, tow points etc.

For me the most fun aspect of motorsport is competing as an underdog in a slower car and getting close to or beating a faster car or driver's times. Competition is a very good thing to encourage people to get excited about motorsport. Without classes and trophies I think you loose a little drive to drop that next .2 sec to catch up to the guy in front. Club motorsport should really be about encouraging new drivers to progress rather than the same fast drivers beating everyone every time so the classes need to move the faster drivers and cars out of the lower classes. Having said that, one of the best learning tools in motorsport is seeing what a better driver can do in a similar car.

Most of all, I think club motorsport should be as cheap as possible and as fun as possible. Keep the competition there but not at the sake of arguing and protesting cars in the wrong classes.

[mattyredlocks]

..someone who starts the year at about 86 seconds around Lakeside and ends it at 72 seconds taking out the trophy...

*cough*Mattyredlocks*cough*

I think you'll find I started out worse than that!

[plohl]

I am not going to make it to one of these events this year. Pretty sad, but I only get a finite amount of time off work, and there are plenty of other options on the weekend (competition is way faster though!). But anyway, here are some thoughts I have.

Most of the cars at these events are not crazily modified. You have the odd 2F/2B spec car show up (most 2F cars have less mods than your average P-plater), maybe some fast turbo cars, but you only have to go through natsoft to see that the times aren't anything crazy regardless of whats been dríven.

I think you could almost get away with 3 classes. Street, Tuned, and Race. Main thing separating classes is power and tyres. Not too dissimilar to what Madjak wrote...

General rules: Must be an mx5 to compete. NA and NB cars considered the same chassis for parts swap.

Street: Natural Aspiration only. Street tyres only.* No aero. Allowed mods: ecu, suspension, exhaust, intake (must have standard TB and plenum), standard mx5 brakes (can have NB8B brakes on NA6 etc, but not BBBKs like willwoods etc), Can change proportioning valve. Roll bars and roll cages as long as they're mod plated. Race seats allowed. Must have stock dash and door cards. Must be road registered. Can have engine swaps provided it's from an mx5 - that is NB8B engine in NA is ok, but no NC's with 2.5L engines.

Tuned: FI allowed (SP's and SE's go here). Street tyres only.* Basic aero**. Same allowed mods as above, but can have aftermarket BBKs, ITBs, and turbos or superchargers. Dash and door cards can be removed. Can have engine conversions outside of mx5, but cannot have engine conversion and forced induction. That is, no turbo/supercharged 2.5L NCs, but turbo NB8B engine in NA ok.

Race: Anything on semi slicks. Turbos, bigger aero**, 200HP naturally aspirated engines...

*treadware over x (140 is commonly used, but street tyres are getting higher treadwear now, so could say 180 and still cover most of the quick street tyres.
**needs further discussion

The logic behind it is if you own a turbo car, you should be faster than a naturally aspirated car, if you’re not, you don’t deserve a trophy. If want to go fast, you’ll be on semis and moved into race category. Going to hazard a guess, those in the race category are there for the track time, not bragging rights.



Or get rid of classes all together as Andrew said... than there is less work.

[mattyredlocks]

Looks like plohl and I were typing at the same time, got mostly the same idea. I'll just leave what I had below as I wrote it, but I like the Street/Tuned/Race idea.

My original idea below:

How's this for an idea on classes:

- Standard (open all unmodified cars with road tyres and naturally aspirated)
- Modified (cars with upgraded suspension, brakes, flywheel, intake, exhaust, slicks or semis, etc. etc. etc.)
- Forced Induction (modified or standard but with a snail or supercharger)
- Outright (anything goes)

Too few categories? Well, maybe not. There's not a huge amount of people who actually participate in these - this is just the Queensland club, after all, and we don't get a huge amount of people. Having this small number of classes means we'd actually get a large number in each class. Do you offset that by doing a first/second/third award? Maybe, if the club is keen for lots of awards (no reason you can't also do 'most improved', 'most consistent', 'you've been coming for years and still are slow as' awards.)

Too large variation of cars eligible for each class? Again, maybe not that big a deal. Just because on paper one car might be more powerful or better set up than another doesn't mean that driver will instantly win. This competition is way more about driver ability than it is about the car. While I'm surely speaking from one end of the field, take me for example, I'm definitely still a total noob - you could put me in Mark's beast, Ross's modified NB or my (mostly) stock car and my times wouldn't change a whole lot. They'd still be slow, and there's absolutely no question that someone in an NA6 that knows what they're doing still has more of a chance of winning.

We're getting very hung up on fair competition between equal cars, but that's not the point of the MX-5 Club sprint days. That's the point of Timeattack. The MX-5 Club sprint days are entry level motorsport - Pretty much as entry level as you can get. For a lot of people it's their first time on a track, not everyone is a professional/ex-pro/aspiring pro. My view is it should be more about improving your own ability with friendly competition people thrown in, rather than and outright comp - Does that mean the classes are a bit fuzzy? Sure, why not. It's meant to be fun. There are plenty of other serious sprint competitions out there.

That said, it doesn't actually matter a whole lot how the classes go - how many people actually showed up to the Christmas do to see who won? Not many.

[JBT]

In any event, this is a completely different issue to the class/trophy question.

Is it really our are you looking to fix a symptom rather then a problem?

The impression I got was there used to be enough entries to fill the classes and now there is not and total attendance is dropping......

There is no real issue with attendance. The numbers have never been better.
The issue is that there are very few "different" MX-5 models entering to justify the number of trophies/classes. Nearly all the MX-5s are NA or NB and they are nearly all modified or FI. There is one standard NC, one modified NC (in that class because of adjustable sway bars ...and a Voodoo gear knob ) and one FI highly modified NC 2.5.